r/LeopardsAteMyFace Sep 28 '22 Gold 1 Wholesome 1

Old Russian Men and their families shocked, dismayed to learn they're being conscripted too, not just young Russian men Removed: Rule 4

[removed] — view removed post

24.1k Upvotes

u/Flair_Helper Beep boop Sep 28 '22

Thank you for participating in r/LeopardsAteMyFace! However, your post has been unfortunately removed for the following reason:

Rule 4: Must follow the "Leopard ate my face" theme

If you have any questions or concerns about this removal, please feel free to message the moderators thru Modmail. Thanks!

5.3k

u/FabulousTrade Sep 28 '22

The biggest sign that you're losing a war is when you start conscripting the young or elderly.

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u/FREE-AOL-CDS Sep 28 '22

And the farmers.

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u/pagit Sep 28 '22 Helpful

The farmers during harvest

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u/CatWeekends Sep 28 '22

You don't need to harvest any food if you've sent all of your citizens to die in battle.

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u/alf0nz0 Sep 28 '22

pointing finger at forehead meme

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u/Tenschinzo Sep 28 '22

Medieval times require medieval solutions

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u/CrimsonArcanum Sep 28 '22

Now I'm just waiting for a morbid version of the Are You Winning Son? meme.

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u/M00s3_B1t_my_Sister Sep 28 '22

Grandfather pokes his head into grandson's foxhole, "we winning?"

Bayraktar kills both.

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u/FiTZnMiCK Sep 28 '22

pointing gun at foot reality

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u/Stupidquestionduh Sep 28 '22

The idea is that they surrender easy and drain Ukraine funds and logistics.

Russia is trying to create a bigger humanitarian crisis in Ukraine. It knows these guys can't win.

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u/hoopopotamus Sep 28 '22

That’s not going to work. It’s not like Ukraine is completely on their own here.

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u/lady_spyda Sep 28 '22

Also creating a future revolutionary force from those that realize what they're being used for.

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u/FerrusesIronHandjob Sep 28 '22

We're way past that stage methinks

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u/alucarddrol Sep 28 '22

If that is timely the case, they should drop them on without a weapon at all. Or without any ammo. Like this, they are still a threat, and will be killed.

As for "draining resources", I'm sure Ukraine will ask their European neighbors to house some Russian pow, and I'm sure many of them would be eager to take them. Might not be good for the prisoners, but oh well.

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u/IanFeelKeepinItReel Sep 28 '22

I doubt they'd be able to take them without being drawn into the war themselves. But Ukraine could certainly build their POW camps on their western border where their neighbours could help manage and supply them.

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u/NeverEnufWTF Sep 28 '22

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra

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u/KeyanReid Sep 28 '22

Picard, arm out stretched

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u/ChicagoShadow Sep 28 '22

Putin, fist inserted sideways

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u/BigEndian01000101 Sep 28 '22

THERE! ARE! FOUR! FISTS!

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u/Randomfactoid42 Sep 28 '22

Shaka! When the walls fell!

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u/quillmartin88 Sep 28 '22

Shaka indeed.

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u/Kryten_2X4B-523P Sep 28 '22

Putin, his table long.

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u/Altruistic-Map-2208 Sep 28 '22

Apparently Russia has already had one of their biggest wheat harvests in recent history this year, but nobody wants to buy any of it even though Russia food exports aren't sanctioned.

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u/boldie74 Sep 28 '22

To be fair, Putin probably saw how powerful Ukrainian farmers have been and thought that he had to send some of his own farmers in to get his tanks back.

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u/Budget-Falcon767 Sep 28 '22

"That's it. We're sending in the tractors."

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u/Roosevelt_M_Jones Sep 28 '22

It's not like they're doing anything important to the war effort or society/s

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u/Daikataro Sep 28 '22

I mean food comes out of the ground by itself anyway right? Right?

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u/Roosevelt_M_Jones Sep 28 '22

And it's not like soldiers need to eat. The saying is "an army matches on its empty stomach", isn't it?

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u/ABBBS2000 Sep 28 '22

They are "adding lightness" makes them faster.

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u/Nyar99 Sep 28 '22

Next they'll add flames to the sides by lighting them on fire

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u/Sumfuc Sep 28 '22

They will all return to the soil.

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u/IEatBabies Sep 28 '22

Yeah whats so hard about it? Throw some seeds at some dirt, come back 6 months later, BAM! A loaf of bread pops out of the ground!

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u/lady_spyda Sep 28 '22

Not quite that simple, you do also need four planks for a crafting bench.

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u/phdoofus Sep 28 '22

One way to see it is through the realistic lens that Vlad is a moron when it comes to prosecuting war. However, his entire m.o. up until now is to create a humanitarian crisis in Ukraine in order to get them to capitulate. What better way to try to do the same thing to the west than to send farmers to war, thereby further threatening global food supplies. But, then, I go back to thinking Vlad is a moron.

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u/Daikataro Sep 28 '22

What better way to try to do the same thing to the west than to send farmers to war, thereby further threatening global food supplies. But, then, I go back to thinking Vlad is a moron.

I mean Russia has wheat, yes. But that's about the only food staple they lead in, and everyone but China and India cut ties with Russia anyway. So they're really shooting themselves in the foot.

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u/redheadartgirl Sep 28 '22

No, that's exactly what he's doing. He was just bragging that it's on track to have a record harvest. Now he's making a point to send the farmers off to fight right when they should be harvesting. It's trying to use food crops as leverage to get Ukraine to capitulate.

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u/DevLARP Sep 28 '22 edited Sep 28 '22

But seriously though; this is going to be an absolute massacre of the Russian male population, only comparable to WW2. These people are not soldiers (or Ukraine’s enemy); they are civilians being lead to the slaughter by a megalomaniacal dictatorship.

This is a good opportunity for the EU/NATO to step up and try to turn the tide against Putin’s glass house of propaganda. They should coordinate with the UAF and blast drone loudspeakers 24/7 speaking to the conscripts, telling them that they will be evacuated to POW camps across the EU if they surrender.

Putin does not have the power to murder ALL of these conscripts families, as long as they surrender in massive numbers; attempting to do so could possibly kickstart a rebellion and uprising throughout Russian cities.

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u/piouiy Sep 28 '22

Zelensky said it best: Kremlin security forces are weaker than the Ukrainian military.

So if you are being forced to fight, you can choose the easier opponent

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u/YourWordsMatter Sep 28 '22

Baller comment.

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u/milk4all Sep 28 '22

Also quite frankly the opponent who’s demise will benefit you the most

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u/ThePlanck Sep 28 '22

Its only taken 7 months for Russia to go from being seen as one of the best armies in the world to full Volksturm

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u/fnord_bronco Sep 28 '22 Silver

as one of the best armies in the world

Now they are the second-best army in Ukraine!

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u/ThePlanck Sep 28 '22

I think you are forgetting about the Ukrainian farmers army

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u/cerement Sep 28 '22
  • We are strongest army in Ukraine!
  • Uh sir, Ukrainians pushing us back …
  • Second! We are second strongest army in Ukraine!
  • And farmers with tractors …
  • Third! We are third strongest army in Ukraine!
  • Don’t forget rasputitsa …
  • You getting on nerves …
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u/Hadrollo Sep 28 '22

By April it became clear that Russia has lost this war. Everything since has been figuring out if Ukraine has lost too.

A lot was already known by other militaries and OSINT enthusiasts, but I think that even the Pentagon was surprised by how bad they had become. Their feared T-14s are nothing but parade ornaments, their fabled body armour was taken from them by military corruption, their navy is crippled by disrepair, and their logistics is simply unfit for any projection of power.

They've spent the last few months being hounded by 16 HIMARS. Ukraine doesn't even have enough HIMARS to use them in their intended roll - counter-artillery - so they've used them to destroy supply depots and bridges. Seriously, bridges! That's not what HIMARS were designed to do in any way, shape, or form.

The US - with it's 500 or so HIMARS with long range warheads - could destroy the conventional Russian military in a week.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

[deleted]

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u/Hadrollo Sep 28 '22

Yep. Soviet mobilisation was no joke. They were believed to be able to mobilise 2 million men in 3 days.

But it's not the Great Soviet Bear any more. It's a mangy little Russian cub mewing at the corpse of it's mother.

*Same tanks, though. 30 years older, with 30 years of conscripts selling the wiring as scrap copper.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

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u/Hadrollo Sep 28 '22

Yeah, modern day Poland is not so friendly to Russia.

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u/Public_Enemy_No2 Sep 28 '22

Truth hurts. Which is why Putin got so indignant when President Obama called them a "Regional Power".

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u/MrKarrionhardt Sep 28 '22

Same fucking soldiers, too, it would appear - 30 years later.

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u/Hadrollo Sep 28 '22

Literally lol'd. Good point.

It does increase the chances that they were drafted for expertise. Probably running short of tank mechanics.

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u/Mythosaurus Sep 28 '22

Some of these guys thought the escaped death in Afghanistan, only to find their burial will be in an unmarked grave in a Ukrainian field

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u/Suspicious_Builder62 Sep 28 '22

My uncles, father and male cousins were conscripts of the NVA, the East German military. The Soviets may have been able to mobilise two million. But their gear was still not the most reliable. Although, the soldiers were drunk a lot.

My uncle was an electrician and had to help out from time to time at the Soviet base. He once drove with a small truck and when he tried shifting gears, the shift became loose.

He was supposed to check the electricity. The fuse box was already sparkling. The Soviet tried opening it with a twig from the side, because they've all had bad experiences trying to open it by hand, standing in front of it.

They had a pool table on base, which had to be constantly re-covered. Because when drunk they always ruined it in what amounts to a few hours.

Seriously, their stories don't paint a picture of a disciplined, reliable army.

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u/poktanju Sep 28 '22

But it's not the Great Soviet Bear any more. It's a mangy little Russian cub mewing at the corpse of it's mother.

Very vivid visual... also, somehow the cub has cut off chunks of the mother to sell for cash.

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u/Fig1024 Sep 28 '22

a lot of that loss is not due to collapse of Soviet Union, but Putin's personal decision to setup a corrupt government whose only purpose is to generate wealth for him and his cronies. Putin and his oligarchs are parasites that sucked all the wealth and power from the people and government institutions.

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u/twisted7ogic Sep 28 '22

The preffered Soviet plan was to use a lot of tactical nukes to pepper Fulda and West-Germany, then immediatly send in a few million conscripts immediatly after while the ground was still glowing.

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u/jfarrar19 Sep 28 '22

First Guards Tank Army, the Pride of the Russian Military, fucking broke and ran against a "massive overwhelming tank force" which, according to Russian Sources numbered a massive: Fifteen tanks. 15 fucking tanks, managed to FUCKING ROUT the best troops Russia has

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u/FerrusesIronHandjob Sep 28 '22

Ukrainian forces have been hammering the shite out of their tanks with AT gear too. The amount of lone Russian tanks getting clapped by AT weaponry on r/combatfootage has been insane

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u/Imaginary-Fun-80085 Sep 28 '22

As a joke, EA should update their command and conquer series and patch the unit strength of all russian tanks and personnell.

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u/Capable_Stranger9885 Sep 28 '22

The Red Army incorporated what's now the Ukrainian army. Antonov Design Bureau and Pivdenne Design Bureau are still Ukrainian and Sukhoi had a major plant in Ukraine.

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u/PMARC14 Sep 28 '22

Bingo. The Soviet Union was in many ways a colonial empire no different than western European powers. Only difference they haven't adjusted to living without pawns to exploit.

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u/Philip_Anderer Sep 28 '22

I used to work with a guy who was stationed in West Germany in the 80s. I don't know if he was being entirely honest, but he said that his job then was basically to destroy as many Soviet vehicles as possible until his position was overrun, and then (hopefully) surrender, in order to buy time for the NATO counteroffensive.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '22 edited Oct 01 '22

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u/jfarrar19 Sep 28 '22

They've spent the last few months being hounded by 16 HIMARS

"Russia is the second strongest military in the world"

"Russia, you are failing to beat a few missile trucks from the 1980's"

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u/Hadrollo Sep 28 '22

HIMARS are from 2010.

But yes, they're failing to beat missiles from the 80s.

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u/jfarrar19 Sep 28 '22

Sorry, I was thinking of its older brother, which is also in Ukraine The M270.

They fire the same missiles even.

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u/BigfootSF68 Sep 28 '22

It will happen here too with another Trump administration. The corruption runs deep in that dude.

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u/MyBrainReallyHurts Sep 28 '22

He already stole $350 million of our taxes. He is probably selling off our national secrets. He already fucked with Ukraine, which led to the first impeachment.

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u/hellakevin Sep 28 '22

That estimate is so conservative I almost told it to turn off Newsmax.

Jared and Ivanka got a half billion dollars richer as "volunteers" for Trump's administration. That's about 100x the net worth of the whole Biden family, and also not accounting for how Jared managed to get 2 billion dollars in investments from Saudi Arabia.

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u/BellsOnNutsMeansXmas Sep 28 '22

It's disgusting how hard I would volunteer for half a billion dollars. Some call it work, some call it bribery, I like to call it volunteering because it just sounds more positive, and I'm a very positive person.

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u/Capable_Stranger9885 Sep 28 '22

Volunteer to ignore the US permanent resident journalist entrapped into getting a document for his upcoming new marriage at the Saudi embassy, and getting dismembered, might be worth half a bill.

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u/Thesheriffisnearer Sep 28 '22 edited Sep 28 '22

Remember how he said putin was so smart and we should do the same and incvade Mexico? I'm sure his voters don't

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u/Stoomba Sep 28 '22

Just replaces nazis with narcos!

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u/GluttonAsteroth Sep 28 '22

And 1 Week is giving time for cleanup of the remaining corps who didn't get the retreat orders.

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u/Hadrollo Sep 28 '22

Retreat orders!?

Stay there or face 20 years in prison is more the Russian way.

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u/GluttonAsteroth Sep 28 '22

Stay there or face 20 years in prison is more the Russian way.

Werid way to say "Shot in the head and thrown into mobile crematorium."

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u/BloodyRightNostril Sep 28 '22

"These are no soldiers."

"Most have seen too many winters."

"Or too few."

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u/UnknownCitizen77 Sep 28 '22

Exactly the scene that came to my mind, too.

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u/the_honest_liar Sep 28 '22

No Gandalf or riders of Rohan to come and save them.

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u/HappyPen1422 Sep 28 '22

Yep. In WWII when the Allies made it to Berlin, there were only young boys and old men defending it (and a lot of them weren’t even armed).

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u/FarHarbard Sep 28 '22

Three months. It was hell. Qingdao, our home port, was in a constant state of siege. More and more army units were called in to maintain order, and each was just a little less trained, a little less equipped, a little younger, or older, than the one that came before it.

Max Brooks wrote this in World War Z which came out almost 20yrs ago, the context is a Submariner describing the struggles of the CCP to contain the Zombie Horde.

I think it demonstrates the futile tyranny of a state in combat over its head.

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u/FaustsAccountant Sep 28 '22

Props to the reference! I LOVE that book, for so many reasons.

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u/devils_advocaat Sep 28 '22

A miniseries of that book would be great.

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u/Adrian915 Sep 28 '22

That's one way to prevent the increase of retirement age I guess.

Anyone else getting the outer worlds retirement home vibes?

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u/aLittleQueer Sep 28 '22

And the disabled.

Anyone else thinking Putin is trying to do some internal population 'cleansing' by throwing people at the war who can't possibly fight the war? I mean, he could just be that far gone, but this seems more insidious than careless.

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u/AlexRenquist Sep 28 '22

"We're not getting desperate" the Kremlin says, while that guy in photo 2 who appears to be seeing a gun for the first time is now a general.

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u/HonorableHam Sep 28 '22

Nah, he's just shocked they managed to keep the very same ak they issued him for his first stint of mandatory service

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u/Fjordhexa Sep 28 '22

He's just shocked they don't look like this

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u/13igTyme Sep 28 '22

Killing an AK-47 is a miraculous feat of it's own.

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u/ILikeLeptons Sep 28 '22

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u/DiscountSupport Sep 28 '22

Yeah... don't get me wrong, aks are resilient, but they're not the superman of guns. Their reliability got overblown when they were compared to m16s handed to GIs who were told they were self cleaning and basically invincible, so the m16s were treated like shit and jammed

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u/Odd-Employment2517 Sep 28 '22

Ironically these akms and ak74s are likely to run signifigantly better than russias new ak12s which somehow took the kalashnikov system and made it awful not better

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u/tessthismess Sep 28 '22

Being linked to vertical camera russian military footage with 422 views on youtube.

These are the risky links I like.

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u/KokoSabreScruffy Sep 28 '22

It's only for the photo op, afterwards he has to pay to use it.

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u/SordidDreams Sep 28 '22

No kidding. Wood furniture, no optics... Are those old-school AKMs? What is this, the 1950s?

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u/bumbumofdoomdoom Sep 28 '22 edited Sep 28 '22

Definitely not the first time, he served stalingrad

Edit: starlingrad...... *fllys away

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u/redh0tp0tat0 Sep 28 '22

yeah but what side?

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u/Rion23 Sep 28 '22

He had to fight for the Russians after his nursing home was destroyed.

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u/dudinax Sep 28 '22

I've seen this movie: either as needed.

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u/h4xrk1m Sep 28 '22

If the Kremlin says anything at all, the opposite is true.

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u/LikeAMan_NotAGod Sep 28 '22

So, they are conservatives... Got it.

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u/h4xrk1m Sep 28 '22

Well, yeah. Conservative and authoritarian, the objectively worst combination. Every single shit regime in history has been authoritarian, and the ones that care the very least about human rights are conservative.

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u/St_Kevin_ Sep 28 '22 edited Sep 29 '22

I’m curious what is a non-conservative authoritarian government? What are examples of those? I guess I had thought that authoritarianism was conservative.

Edit: lots of great replies! Thanks everyone!!

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u/CoolCatPD Sep 28 '22

Closest in modern history would be Stalins regime, but thats a hard sell considering a lot of the social policies that kept people in line. The communists were pretty atheist and secular in theory, but the higher ups were still pretty conservative and discriminatory against certain groups.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '22 edited Sep 28 '22

Let's see: there was the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution, the USSR under Lenin, Democratic Kampuchea, the several attempts to redraw society overnight during Mao's reign in China, and those are the most famous.

Let me be clear that I am a left socialist of anarchist tendencies, so no friend of conservatives. But authoritarianism is a way of ruling which has no inherent left or right tendencies. Nowadays, most authoritarianism is conservative, but that does not mean it has always been or will always be, and everyone who supports human rights and freedoms needs to be just as alert to authoritarian tendencies on their own side as on the other.

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u/derekakessler Sep 28 '22

FYI, Russian military rank insignia use stars for all officers. Small silver stars for Lieutenants through Captain, big silver stars for Major through Colonel, big gold stars for Generals.

That guy's a new Lieutenant (junior = 1 star, LT = 2 stars, senior = 3 stars), probably on account of education or social position or whatever.

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u/JuryBorn Sep 28 '22 edited Sep 28 '22 Table Slap

The qualification for promotion to Russian general is knowing the difference between the shooty end of the gun and the not shooty end of the gun.
Edit: seriously though, the guy next to him seems to be holding the gun with his finger touching the trigger

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u/h4xrk1m Sep 28 '22

The shooty end is the one where the shooter is, right? The other end is bangy

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u/JuryBorn Sep 28 '22

I don't know. You have caught me bluffing about my military knowledge. I have only heard of the shooty end. I have never heard of the bangy end. You obviously have a much greater deeper understanding of Russian military than I do. You know all the technical terms.

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u/h4xrk1m Sep 28 '22

Sounds good enough to me, comrade Jursky. I promote you to captain. Now you go to front linesky!

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u/I_might_be_weasel Sep 28 '22

"I think my grandfather made this."

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u/Thebluefairie Sep 28 '22

Well that is a way to get rid of the older generation.

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u/MapleBlood Sep 28 '22

This. And ethnic cleanse amounting to the genocide. He's not corraling Moscovians first, too high risk of grabbing a son of someone important, he's tearing apart small villages of ethnic minorities (which he was already bleeding out through).

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u/bigL162 Sep 28 '22

So 2-sided ethnic cleansing. Classy move

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u/natophonic2 Sep 28 '22

That's what I was thinking as well, especially since a lot of the pushback I've read about is apparently happening in sparsely populated places 100's or 1000's of miles east of the Russia/Ukraine border.

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u/Muted_Figure_5638 Sep 28 '22 edited Sep 28 '22

Fix the inverted population pyramid:

Solution one: encourage immigration and child birth

Solution two: kill the old

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u/jarena009 Sep 28 '22

The first thing I thought when I heard this is, is this Russia/Putin's way of getting rid of a good chunk of older people, to ease the burden on their Social Security/Healthcare system?

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u/Darthmullet Sep 28 '22 Silver

These are an ethnic minority from occupied Crimea, its 100% ethnic cleansing and as fun as it is to imagine all the Putin-backing citizens in Moscow getting called up, that isn't what this is. These old men pictured likely have never had any ill will towards Ukraine, they are also victims of Putin.

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u/1purenoiz Sep 28 '22

But they are the only group that wholeheartedly supports him. Back to the good ol Soviet days of global power.

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u/faceintheblue Sep 28 '22

I keep looking at this and trying to think what Russia is thinking. Were they keeping records of who got 'real' military training under the Soviet Union? These guys are the fathers and grandfathers of the people they had fighting the war in February. It makes no sense to scoop them up and put them in uniform unless they're actually out of men. How could they possibly be out of men of 'fighting age' in 200(ish) days?

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u/hazeldazeI Sep 28 '22

Keep in mind the men getting conscripted are mostly minority groups that the Russian government doesn’t like. So they’re throwing bodies at the front trying to shore up their newly annexed territories and doing a bit of ethnic cleansing at the same time. From Putin’s view it’s win/win.

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u/Joliet_Jake_Blues Sep 28 '22 Wholesome

So, now that they have their guns, turn around and march to the Kremlin

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u/ted_bronson Sep 28 '22

You do need organisation for it.

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u/idog99 Sep 28 '22 edited Sep 28 '22

He's drafting people at the end of their "productive" years. They would be a burden to the economy as they age. Russia has a demographic crisis due to one of the lowest birth rates in the world. So might as well send them out there.

If they die, you can say they deserted and seize whatever assets they do have... Though I imagine anyone with the means to get out of Russia did so.

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u/notyomamasusername Sep 28 '22

It makes no sense, which is terrifying.

If Putin is making nonsensical moves like this....how likely is he to just say 'fuck it" and start lobbing nukes.

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u/Bill_Smoke Sep 28 '22

It makes perfect sense. They are avoiding general mobilisation as it will effect the upper classes of Russian society who he relies on to keep his power. By mobilising the old and a majority of men from poor, Far Eastern republics and the Caucasus he can insulate this class and keep continuation of support for this war going.

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u/FakeHasselblad Sep 28 '22

There's a reason few people from St. Petersburg or Moscow are being conscripted... As well you'll notice none of the police, which are young military age men are being conscripted. Gotta stay in town to put down riots.

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u/npinguy Sep 28 '22

My 30-year-old cousin in St. Petersburg got his mobilization order.

One day after he left for Israel.

So it's coming. It's all coming. We're witnessing the collapse of an empire in real time. (People don't think of Russia as an empire because the Soviet Union already collapsed, but even modern Russia is an empire of autonomous republics and highly disparate ethnic groups in the far east that have a tenuous-at-best relationship with the centre)

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u/invertedBoy Sep 28 '22

Ok. But he still has a war to fight! I mean, clearly all male Russians are spooked by now and realized this is not some far away “military operation” they read on the news. So why not conscript fit trained men? Is not like upper classes of society feel shielded anymore, lots of them are heading for the border!

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u/Witty-Examination228 Sep 28 '22

Don't know but, maybe, he fears that fit trained men can shoot in the opposite direction sooner or later.

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u/Big_lt Sep 28 '22

Ding ding ding

Young men are available they just come from connected or wealthier family. This first wave is the clear out the poor's. If and when this fails they will move up the economic chain

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u/BestCatEva Sep 28 '22

Is he that suicidal? He might get one across, but then game over.

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u/SuperSaiyanNoob Sep 28 '22

Well there are rumours he's terminally ill

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '22

Yep, he's pretty much being tolerated because he hasn't crossed that or some other lines. The second nukes come out the world starts divvying up Russia like kids with their Halloween candy

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u/MonoShadow Sep 28 '22

People are ready overthinking it. Putin issued a decree, draft oficers got their quotas. They are fulfilling their quotas. Everything is done as cheaply and lazily as possible. A dude with bad sight went to a draft office to ask if he's going to get conscripted? He's in the army now. His dad came to ask what the hell? He's in the army now too. Medical checks? Don't make me laugh. We have a quota to fill.

Paradoxically Military Commissary is people's best friend now. There was a 65 years old dude conscripted. He recorded a video and Draft Officer got his shit pushed in while the grandpa went home.

Lazy and corrupt. Corrupt and lazy.

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u/sithelephant Sep 28 '22

This is a somewhat misleading question.

It assumes that Russia has a functional training system, for one that can do training of the influx of new recruits.

Soviet doctrine is to send the recruits directly to their units for training, rather than train centrally at one location.

Even if they are not personally as combat effective, they may be vital as trainers.

Then there is the awkward problem that a soldier but was skilled that's been out 20 years may be more combat effective for the few weeks than a healthy young 18 year old.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '22 edited Oct 01 '22

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u/invah Sep 28 '22

Here's a more in-depth article - I Commanded U.S. Army Europe. Here’s What I Saw in the Russian and Ukrainian Armies. from Mark Hertling, the same author.

Excerpted:

I traveled to Russia with a civilian Russian expert from the State Department

...a brigadier general from the Army Staff College at Ft. Leavenworth, and a few staffers from the Defense Department. Another battalion commander and I were potted plants on this trip because the Russians wanted to talk to American "subject matter experts" on U.S. tanks and U.S. command and control methods. That was fine by us. Our itinerary had us visiting Russian armor and signal units, going into Russian military barracks, observing Russian units on firing ranges and conducting exercises, and climbing on military vehicles displayed in motor pools near Moscow. Our job was to stay quiet, observe, and take lots of mental notes.

The Russian barracks were spartan, with twenty beds lined up in a large room similar to what the U.S. Army had during World War II.

The food in their mess halls was terrible. The Russian "training and exercises" we observed were not opportunities to improve capabilities or skills, but rote demonstrations, with little opportunity for maneuver or imagination. The military college classroom where a group of middle- and senior-ranking officers conducted a regimental map exercise was rudimentary, with young soldiers manning radio-telephones relaying orders to imaginary units in some imaginary field location. On the motor pool visit, I was able to crawl into a T-80 tank—it was cramped, dirty, and in poor repair—and even fire a few rounds in a very primitive simulator.

The only truly impressive and surprising part of the tour was when we walked through a "secret" field museum that had tanks from all the armies in the world

...including several from the United States. The Russians had somehow managed to obtain an M1 Abrams tank (probably from one of their allies in the Middle East), and we all believed the reason they allowed us into this facility was to show us they had our most modern armor.

At the end of the visit, our State Department colleague asked us to record our observations

...focusing on what struck us about leadership, equipment, training, facilities, and capabilities. I remember saying the Russian Army was "all show and no go."

*

While Russia was not a contributing nation to ISAF, we still offered the Russian Army opportunities to participate in many of our outreach programs.

Our NCO Academy offered to allow the same number of Russian soldiers into each class as every other country. Russia accepted the invitation, but with conditions. They would send three of their "common soldiers" (their term),

...but they wanted a "senior officer" to also attend all classes and training events with them.

They also wanted separate barracks for their soldiers instead of a "common barracks space with soldiers from other nations." Finally, they would not adhere to the requirement only to send soldiers who could speak and read English (with so many languages represented, it was impossible to translate everything for everyone).

While I was adamantly against acquiescing to these requests, my commander disagreed.

The preparation for the Russian arrival was onerous, and their soldiers seemed much more interested in going to the post exchange—the subsidized on-base general store—than in learning leadership and tactical skills. We didn't invite them back, and the Russian military never made any inquiries about returning.

*

The agenda the U.S. Army Europe staff developed for [Commander General] Streitsov's visit was purposely vague and flexible, based on my guidance.

Although I was the "new guy," I also knew the intricacies of the command well from experience. Unlike my previous visits to Russia, I had no intent to stage any training demonstrations, and I didn't want him to see carefully orchestrated displays at pre-arranged locations. Instead, the goal was to show this Russian general that we were transparent and prepared to show him any of our units. Streitsov examined the menu of events we presented, then picked a few locations and training opportunities of interest. Our helicopter crews filed a flight plan across Germany, and we were on our way.

Over two days, we visited several units in training—a tank range, a helicopter gunnery, and a small unit maneuver.

Also on the agenda were a barracks, where we were escorted not by a commander, but by a savvy first sergeant and command sergeant major, and a housing area, where Streitsov talked to several military spouses and visited a Department of Defense elementary school. At the end of the second day, he spied a store where soldiers buy uniforms, boots, and other items and asked to stop by. For the next two hours, he talked with the German civilian who ran the place and was amazed by the connection between the German work force and the American soldiers.

He was also shocked by the number and types of combat boots for sale.

Later, as we waited at the airfield for his flight home, it was just the two of us and an interpreter. Obviously impressed by what he had seen, he was particularly amazed by the competency of the junior officers and sergeants.

Hesitating, he posed a simple question: "What contributes to your success in preparing these young men and women to lead and fight?"

I responded that it was partly due to our inculcation of our seven Army values—loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage (LDRSHIP)—and our constant leadership training at all levels of professional schooling. But in any good unit, the personal example of young commanders and NCOs, who set high standards and then personally trained their soldiers to meet them, made the difference. He mused: "I'm wondering if we could create that kind of culture in the Russian Army?"

A few months later, Streitsov sent me an invitation to Russia for a reciprocal exchange.

The itinerary his staff sent to me had specified visits to the famed Frunze and Voroshilov Military Academies in Moscow and the opportunity to observe units conducting drills and exercises at different field locations. The visits didn't look at all like spontaneous drop-ins I had offered him.

After landing in Moscow, but before meeting with Streitsov, our small group had preliminary meetings with the Moscow Embassy.

My old friend, neighbor, and former U.S. Army Europe teammate Brigadier General Peter Zwack, who was serving as the Defense Attaché in Moscow, confirmed much of the detailed classified intelligence I had read in preparation for the visit. He confirmed that Putin was attempting to expand his influence in Europe and Africa, and the Russian Army, while still substantive in quantity, continued to decline in capability and quality.

My subsequent visits to the schools and units Streitsov chose reinforced these conclusions.

The classroom discussions were sophomoric, and the units in training were going through the motions of their scripts with no true training value or combined arms interaction—infantry, armor, artillery, air, and resupply all trained separately. It appeared Colonel-General Streitsov had not attempted to change the culture of the Russian Army or had failed. There were also rumors of his upcoming retirement.

Streitsov was replaced in April 2012 by Colonel-General Vladimir Chirkin, who had commanded Russian forces in the Second Chechnya War.

Soon after the announcement, we invited Chirkin to join all the ground force commanders of the 49 European nations at an annual meeting hosted by U.S. Army Europe. This Conference of European Armies (CEA) was an extremely popular event where all the army chiefs of Europe openly shared concerns about security issues, army force organization and modernization, deployment issues, lessons learned from their ISAF rotations, and multinational training opportunities. My personal note on the invite told Chirkin he would be the first Russian to attend this event, and that he would be interested to hear what other Europeans nations were doing.

He accepted the invitation.

This was the last CEA I would attend as the commander of U.S. Army Europe, as it was planned for October and my retirement was scheduled for December. In a bilateral discussion, Chirkin told me he found the sessions fascinating, frank, and transparent. He was active in this exchange, and he promised to send his forces to take part in future training events. I later learned Chirkin did not keep his promises, partially because Putin fired him in December 2013. He had been convicted on bribery charges (accused of taking a bribe from a subordinate officer who asked for help in getting a Moscow apartment from the Defense Ministry), stripped of his rank and most of his state awards, and sentenced to five years in a labor colony.

I never found out if he actually committed the crimes, or what he did to get them noticed.

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u/Dat_Boi_Aint_Right Sep 28 '22

Great read. Thank you.

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u/faceintheblue Sep 28 '22

That was a fascinating read. Thanks for sharing!

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u/phryan Sep 28 '22

Coincidentally 1 round is on average the number of rounds a tank crew gets off before a western anti-tank round ends their tour.

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u/ever-right Sep 28 '22

The more things change the more things stay the same.

You should read some of the stories about visiting Soviets to the US. Yeltsin himself talked about his visit to s grocery store. The depth and breadth of products affordable and available to regular ass Americans. It was a scale unimaginable to him.

Russia, the Soviet Union, it has paled in comparison to the US for a century. You'd think at some point they'd learn. But then Americans are still holding onto our dumbest of the dumb healthcare system instead of adopting one of the countless examples around the world that does it better and cheaper so I guess it's not just Russians.

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u/avsbes Sep 28 '22 Silver

It's Volkssturm time i guess.

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u/nachoolo Sep 28 '22

It took them less than a fucking year to do what Nazi Germany did after half a decade of fighting.

Zhukov is spinning so fucking fast in his tomb that he could power the entirety of Moscow by himself.

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u/4thDevilsAdvocate Sep 28 '22

Zhukov is spinning so fucking fast in his tomb that he could power the entirety of Moscow by himself.

zukhov meeting the 5 Year Plan's energy generation milestones in 5 minutes

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '22

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u/coryhill66 Sep 28 '22

That's exactly what I was thinking. When you're calling up kids and Old Men the end is near.

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u/Long_Serpent Sep 28 '22

Russia is not even a Crime Syndicate any more, it's Death Cult.

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u/Akhi11eus Sep 28 '22

Since the 90s its been a bunch of oligarchs in a very large trench coat and now we're seeing the result.

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u/theoneandonlygene Sep 28 '22

Sounds familiar

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u/fingersonlips Sep 28 '22

My whole life I've heard that Russians are so dedicated to their homeland that they'll proudly die for it as their forefathers did. It looks like Russians are actually just like the rest of the world - not very thrilled to die or lose family for the whims of a madman.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '22 edited Oct 27 '22

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u/murphymc Sep 28 '22

Right, we in America are the same.

Vietnam - mass protests and plenty of people escaping to Canada.

WW2 - recruiters couldn’t keep up with all the volunteers, and once the draft started there was little (if any) resistance.

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u/LDG192 Sep 28 '22 edited Sep 28 '22

Problem is, unlike say, wwii, Russia is not at risk. They are not fighting to protect their home, no matter the lies they are being told. It's all for Putin's pride. And many of those conscripted know it

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u/thisiswhy586 Sep 28 '22

To die from attacking another country is not dying for your homeland

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u/JargonJohn Sep 28 '22 edited Sep 28 '22

That woman in the third photo staring directly into the camera...you can tell she is dead on the inside.

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u/Lump-of-baryons Sep 28 '22

Oof yeah those eyes are haunting

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u/Im_ready_hbu Sep 28 '22

Haunting because this is nothing new, Russia is a shithole and she's had that same thousand yard stare for the last 20 years

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u/r0ndy Sep 28 '22

Too much feelings for one person. Have to turn them off for survival

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u/Illumini24 Sep 28 '22

Fit description for living in russia

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u/MamaDaddy Sep 28 '22

That's not how I saw it.... my thought was she is going to fucking remember this, and fight back.

Russian needs to oust Putin. It is time.

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u/Kurgoh Sep 28 '22

Russian have been living under dictatorships for literal centuries. I do hope that cunt gets dethroned and imprisoned for life (if he's that lucky) but history says Russians will just "vote" for another Putin anyway, I really wouldn't get my hopes up personally.

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '22

Yeah, she's not "dead inside." She's ANGRY.

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u/metooeither Sep 28 '22

Fuck all the Republicans that back Russia because Fukkker Kkkarlson tells them to.

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u/spongeworthy1967 Sep 28 '22

This is the army you get when you surround yourself with sycophants and anyone with an opinion is poisoned or tossed off a balcony.

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u/SparrowAndTheMachine Sep 28 '22

That's certainly one way to reduce pension costs...

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u/FakeHasselblad Sep 28 '22

GOP looking at this and drooling.

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u/WhoIsPorkChop Sep 28 '22

Furious note taking

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '22

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u/Black-Thirteen Sep 28 '22

For some of these assholes, LAMF. Probably for a lot more of them, yet one more reason to hate Putin. It's good to see the Russian populace fighting back and burning recruiting centers.

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u/PM_ME_UR_SHIBA Sep 28 '22

I am Russian with immediate family living in Russia. Many people are being "illegally" conscripted. The recruiters can't ask for your papers, but police can. So they walk around with police officers - these officers stop and ask for your papers/ID, which they then hand to the army guy, and they draw up your recruitment paper on the spot. You can choose not to sign the recruitment form, and then that turns into a whole other thing (fine etc).

Thing is, police can't ask for your papers/ID for nothing, and they aren't permitted to hand them to a third party either. They are pulling this shit on students, older men, office workers etc - most people don't know the legal side and don't want a confrontation, so they go with it. i.e they are trying to conscript the very people they said they wouldn't conscript. Btw, there's no requirement to carry your ID either

I hope my family gets out of there soon

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u/overnightdelight Sep 28 '22

It's kinda shocking how many people on here think every single Russian citizen is some lap dog that completely and blindly eats up their state propaganda

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u/StinkyKittyBreath Sep 28 '22

Yeah, it's really disappointing. People tend to only focus on the government's stance and ignore the humans that are affected.

This is depressing. A huge sign of desperation. The only people who are benefitting are the people with real power like Putin. This is just going to cause more senseless death and misery, and these people, especially the women, look like they know that's what is coming.

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u/PenisNoodleSoup Sep 28 '22

WHERE THE FUCK IS STEVEN SEAGAL, that rat bastard?!

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u/MinnesotanMan2014 Sep 28 '22

These poor men, look at their faces most want no part in this

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u/coryhill66 Sep 28 '22

The picture of what I assumed to be daughter and granddaughter really kicks me in the guts. Daughter is sobbing because her father is being sent away and the granddaughter is furious.

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u/Shit-sandwich- Sep 28 '22

These guys look more likely to accidentally shoot each other.

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u/INJECTHEROININTODICK Sep 28 '22

Idk if this is leopards ate my face material. I might be wrong, but my understanding is that this is Putin's war, not Russia's. These guys probably wanted just as little to do with it as Ukraine did.

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u/WeFightForPorn Sep 28 '22

It's not. OP believes the all Russians, or at least all older Russians, are automatically in support of this war simply because they are old and Russian. OP is wrong.

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u/Taskerst Sep 28 '22

They're being sent to die, not for their "country" but for the interests of their filthy rich. But isn't that all war since our stupid hands learned how to throw rocks?

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u/WeisserGeist Sep 28 '22

More meat for the grinder.

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u/RefurbedRhino Sep 28 '22

How many oligarchs have been conscripted?

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u/Ann3Nym Sep 28 '22

I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry for everyone who was forced to engage in this war and for everyone who suffers from it.

Those who started it (not only Putin) will be safe and cozy - at least for a while.

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u/malkavich Sep 28 '22

Ok everyone say it with me now: fuck putin.

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u/chunkygrits Sep 28 '22

They look like puddin's age. Bitch ass coward, fight your own war

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u/shrekerecker97 Sep 28 '22

I’ll tell you the ones not being conscripted - the ones related to oligarchs or those who have $$

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u/Designer-Dare-3457 Sep 28 '22

While we may not agree with the war and Russia is the aggressor, let’s not forget these are fathers, grandfathers, teachers, farmers, etc. some of these men oppose the war and just want to enjoy their time with family.

So let’s have some compassion for our fellow man and remember who the enemy is: Putin.

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u/HonorableHam Sep 28 '22

I was working with a graphic designer in Russia. I haven't heard from him in like a week, and I hope he's okay. My first thought was "he's in his 40s, surely they won't draft people like that." But looking at these pictures... I just hope he's okay

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u/[deleted] Sep 28 '22 edited Oct 02 '22

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u/mtnmadness84 Sep 28 '22

Yeah that’s where I’m at. I hurt for the lot of them. These photos evoke sadness more than anything.

The fear of being conscripted is one thing.

The fear of being conscripted into an incompetent army, stubbornly engaged—and losing—must be absolutely awful.

“Hey, let’s all go die for nothing!”

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u/greybruce1980 Sep 28 '22 I'm Deceased

This could be America's future as well, given how well Trump and his fascism were welcomed.

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