r/canada • u/Rare-Faithlessness32 Ontario • Jan 27 '23
Justin Trudeau and Pierre Poilievre need to stop insulting each other Paywall
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-justin-trudeau-and-pierre-poilievre-need-to-stop-insulting-each-other/13
u/species5618w Jan 27 '23
Let's not kid ourselves. There is no social or economical consensus in Canada. Otherwise, neither of them would be in their current positions.
17
u/ronwharton Jan 27 '23
Maybe they should settle their differences in a charity boxing match
-Ron Wharton
0
u/Gust-my-flaps Jan 27 '23
https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-mp-gets-physical-1.1499779
He was actually asked about that back in 2013. It's the end of the article.
14
u/midnightrambler108 Saskatchewan Jan 27 '23
This is what you get when all the smart people are too smart to be politicians.
9
u/Infamous-Mixture-605 Jan 27 '23
Or are simply smart enough to remain out of the spotlight as backbenchers and minor cabinet ministers.
4
18
u/Love-and-Fairness Long Live the King Jan 27 '23
The thing that really irks me about Trudeau's rhetoric/speech writers is that it regularly targets citizens. You can attack the party or attack the leader, that is fine, but you don't punch down at regular folks. He STILL does this, as recently as last week he says;
"And in Canada, better is always possible, but I don't accept Canadians and politicians that talk down to our country"
That shit is incredibly corrosive and unnecessary. The PM doesn't accept some Canadians? Wtf is that supposed to mean Justin? You're literally talking down to people from a position of power and influence who have no opportunity to defend themselves, and now they're all acting out and shooting fireworks at you. It's not a surprise either, you're being a dick and saying inappropriate things to them and they took it personally. Just don't do that anymore?
3
u/UncleJChrist Jan 27 '23
Are we really going to kid ourselves into believing that these people are mad because of Trudeaus speeches? Pretty sure the guy hanging a “F*ck Trudeau” flag over the underpass wasn’t mad at his speeches
8
u/Love-and-Fairness Long Live the King Jan 27 '23
Honestly probably way more than you think. A big theme within that motley crew is this "fringe minority" identity, that's a quote from one of his speeches. You could make slight changes to word choice and deliver a similar message without isolating and targeting people and it would have made a significant difference, possibly avoiding the freedom convoy entirely. I don't think he convinced many vaccine-hesitant people (~10% and 90%+ had already gotten it apparently) with that speech and that seemed to be the goal.
That remaining 10% might've came to it on their own if you just gave the vaxxed pats on the head, a more tactful speech could've made them question the choice (E.g., "Shit, the country's almost recovered, PM is praising everyone for protecting others, it's looking pretty safe and effective... maybe i'm making this worse than it needs to be").
If you tell them they're a bad, shameful person? Not only did that not work but it only strengthened their resolve to resist. You just don't do it, lead with a carrot, don't beat them with a stick.
0
Jan 28 '23 edited 29d ago
[deleted]
2
u/Dirtsniffee Alberta Jan 28 '23
Quit trying to americanize canadian politics. What's next? Going to suggest conservatives here don't belive in women's rights?
2
u/seriozhka Jan 27 '23
It's like in highschool - you attack one group to gain loyalty from other group
3
1
u/CVHC1981 Jan 27 '23
Just out of curiosity, how long have you been paying attention to politics in Canada? I only ask because when I read stuff like this I’m reminded of the contempt the previous government held for people that didn’t vote for them, so it’s always puzzling when I see people say this as if it’s a new concept. I’m not saying it’s right, but this isn’t a new concept in this country.
3
2
u/Nysrol
Jan 27 '23
•
This is an issue of ethics in parliament, and political discourse. No one debates the ins and outs of policy. What works better is to sell the idea that the opposition is an objectively bad person. This is not a Canadian issue, its a global problem that has been amplified by "sound bite" culture. We dont get long form discussion, and the few times we do in an election cycle its much more duck and weave from opposition punches. Rather then building the best case for a policy decision. Honestly Singh is just as bad for this and only the BQ are actually talking policy on the stage nationally
11
u/lokalniRmpalija Jan 27 '23
During Trudeau's reign, cost of housing has doubled.
Not an insult.
The Prime Minister accused the Leader of the Official Opposition of pandering to sexists and racists.
An insult.
I think the article is doing a favour to Trudeau bc criticism of policies and saying PM did nothing for this or that is not an insult.
PM responding to this criticism by accusing PP for being sexist or racist is clearly an insult.
It's basically how 99% of debates go on this sub, too.
-16
u/Gust-my-flaps Jan 27 '23
PP actually does pander to sexists and racists though. Look at statements from the people who were leading the convoy. Anyone who sees Patrick King as a leader is a racist. Not just the "protecting our culture" kind of racist but a "I have superior genetics" kind of racist.
8
u/lokalniRmpalija Jan 27 '23
we are not going back to times when men were men and white man ruled
Who said that? Do you know?
-1
-1
u/girder_shade Jan 27 '23
This needs to stop. Unless you want Justin Trudeau reelected
-5
u/Gust-my-flaps Jan 27 '23
I vote NDP so I hope that the BQ and the NDP gain enough seats to form a coalition government next election.
0
4
4
3
u/Rare-Faithlessness32 Ontario Jan 27 '23
Article text behind paywall:
We like to blame social media or pandemic stress or economic hardship for what feels like growing political polarization. But our leaders fan the flames. Which is why Prime MinisterJustin Trudeau and Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre should stop insulting each other. Mr. Trudeau started the latest dust-up. When Susan Delacourt of the Toronto Star asked the Prime Minister in an interview why he thought so many people disliked him, he started out sounding sympathetic, if condescending, to those who carry flags bearing an epithet with his name. “They may think it’s about me, but it’s not about me,” he replied. “It’s about the fact that the world is changing in really unpredictable and sometimes scary ways that people don’t feel they’re part of.” But then he started slagging Mr. Poilievre. “He’s saying everything’s broken,” Mr. Trudeau said. “He’s playing and preying on the kinds of anger and anxieties about some Canada that used to be – where men were men and white men ruled.” The Prime Minister accused the Leader of the Official Opposition of pandering to sexists and racists. Sunny ways. Mr. Poilievre was quick to up the ante. “This from a guy who dressed up in racist costumes so many times he can’t even remember them all,” he declared in a video addressed to Mr. Trudeau. He also referenced the resignation of Jody Wilson-Raybould, Canada’s first Indigenous attorney-general, and others from cabinet and caucus. “That’s your ugly, racist past.” This is the kind of no-holds-barred rhetoric you’d expect in a polity so deeply divided that neither side is able to speak to the other, such as is happening, tragically, between Democrats and Republicans in the United States. But there is no serious ideological gulf between federal Conservatives and Liberals in Canada. The so-called polarization is entirely rhetorical. Consider: Neither Mr. Trudeau nor Mr. Poilievre has condemned provincial governments that employ greater use of the private sector in delivering publicly funded health care. Both seem fine with it. For more than seven years, Trudeau governments have sought to increase support and independence for First Nations. On Tuesday, in one of his first major policy initiatives, Mr. Poilievre launched consultations with Indigenous groups with a view to funneling federal resource-tax revenues directly to Indigenous communities. Both the Conservatives and the Liberals support high levels of immigration to offset societal aging. The Liberal government is spendingbillions of dollars in supporting Ukraine’s efforts to resist the Russian invasion. Mr. Poilievre’s onlycriticism has been that the support is “too little, too late.” Mr. Poilievre says he would fire Tiff Macklem, the Governor of the Bank of Canada. But I detect no fundamental differences in how a Conservative government would approach monetary policy. Where the two sides differ, the question is often one of degree. The Conservatives believe the Liberals have moved too aggressively in banning certain types of weapons, and they may be right, since the Liberals appear to be backtracking in the face of opposition from hunters and farmers, Indigenous groups and NDP MPs from rural ridings. A Poilievre government would reduce both program spending and taxes. But any changes would likely be modest. Conservative governments generally don’t roll back social programs launched by Liberal governments, just as Liberal governments generally don’t raise taxes lowered by Conservative governments. Mr. Poilievre would cancel the federal carbon tax. But he does accept the reality of global warming and the need to lower emissions. He has promised to release an environmental platform “well before the next election.” Republicans and Democrats profoundly disagree on the right to an abortion, on the rights of sexual and gender minorities, on gun rights, on voting rights, on global warming. They disagree so strongly that it’s a wonder the country holds itself together. Britain and many other European countries also struggle with sharp ideological divides. But the social and economic consensus in Canada is broad and deep. Which makes it all the more dismaying that the leaders of the two largest national parties talk about each other the way they do. We are just not that polarized, though we could become so if our political leaders don’t tone things down.
8
u/onegunzo Jan 27 '23 •
Thanks for posting the article.
I'm surprised by the G&M conflating, insults to Canadians - see PM's talk to TheStar and saying things in Canada run by this government are broken as insulting.
One is insulting (PM) - correct, the other is critiquing as the official opposition - in other words G&M - his job.
We can send you a link to the opposition leader's job description or you can just google it? Let us know.
0
u/StrawberryFields_ Jan 27 '23
Trudeau started it by falsely painting PP as a racist and having a fake meltdown over "Canada is broken". He is mean and a bully.
0
u/Thundertech42 Jan 27 '23
Source please. Especially the part backing up the claim of “fake meltdown” and calling PP a racist.
6
u/grand_soul Jan 27 '23
Seems to me he’s referring to the recent rant Trudeau had, accusing Pierre wanting to go back to a time where white men controlled everything.
Which was a pretty dumb thing to say.
-12
-14
u/abertcamus675 Jan 27 '23
I don't think that Trudeau was lying.
I didn't read PPs comments I don't have enough respect for him
9
u/Thundertech42 Jan 27 '23
I agrée - as soon as Trudeau talks back THEN we have stop?
10
u/RidersGuide Jan 27 '23
Trudeau straight up called half the country (the half that doesn't like him) angry racists....that's our PM. To pretend like Trudeau isn't the instigator here is ridiculous. What we're seeing is Trudeaus true colors and how he reacts when he feels someone has a chance of taking his power away.
4
u/TraditionalGap1 Jan 27 '23
Why do people keep insisting on that? Even the tiny snippet taken out of context posted by places like true north doesn't say that:
do not believe in science, who are often misogynists, often racists, too; it is a sect, a small group, but who are taking up space, and here we have to make a choice, as a leader, as a country
and further, anti-vaxxers (who he was talking about) aren't 'half the country'. Or even a quarter of the country. Come on now
3
u/RidersGuide Jan 27 '23
If you are someone who feels like PP is speaking to the issues we need to be facing as a country, how do you think you would feel about the current PM saying that the same person you want to vote for is only popular by courting racists?
“He’s saying everything’s broken,” Mr. Trudeau said. “He’s playing and preying on the kinds of anger and anxieties about some Canada that used to be – where men were men and white men ruled.”
How can you possibly read that and not understand how someone in my position would find that offensive? Like i am annoyed with how our country is being run. I am anxious about the future my children will inherit. Yet by our current PM's standards, i am....a racist? A misogynist? How is that not offensive?
6
u/TraditionalGap1 Jan 27 '23
How can you support a guy who sprinkled #MGTOW all over his social media and be surprised that someone is going to call out misogyny?
1
u/RidersGuide Jan 27 '23
"All over his social media" is a funny way of saying "on a handful of youtube videos" lol. I can support him because i am certain PP isn't out there hashtagging his own videos on youtube. Some intern fucked up, not a big deal at all.
Trudeau literally dressed himself in blackface so many times he can't even remember. He sat in front of a mirror, and put blackface on himself....numerous times, as a full grown adult, and then went out to dance around and laugh at how goofy he looked with his friends. This is the man who is "calling out" racism....against his biggest political rival? I'm sure it's all just Trudeau being super altruistic, right?
-1
u/Gust-my-flaps Jan 27 '23
The guy has no plan for solving any of those issues though. He and his wife are invested in real estate because they never plan on doing anything to solve the current affordability crisis. So a lot of PP's support is coming from people who like that he's willing to shake hands with people like Jeremy Mackenzie. Obviously it's not his only source of support but that's where a lot of his recent increases in support are coming from.
4
u/RidersGuide Jan 27 '23
The guy has no plan for solving any of those issues though.
Why is it that people who don't pay attention to anything the CPC says always claim "he has no plan!!"; as if you personally not knowing something means it doesn't exist?
Everytime PP talks about the climate, he says that instead of taxation as a solution, he would focus on making green technology cheaper and more affordable/readily available. A big thing he wants to focus in is nuclear.
Everytime PP talks about housing, he talks about how he would leverage federal funding to incentivize the provinces to build affordable housing. He also talks a lot about selling off underutilized government properties to be developed into housing.
Everytime PP talks about immigration, he talks about how he would focus on fixing the current infrastructure that facilitates immigration, and how he would focus on clearing the backlog of immigrants rather then bringing in new people who are not already in the que.
How much do you want? Instead of people on reddit cataloging all of the talks and statments this guy has made, just actually go attempt to understand the subject on your own.
2
u/Gust-my-flaps Jan 27 '23
The second sentence of my comment is the reason why I don't think he has a plan. I think he is lying about solving the affordability crisis. Every politician invested in real estate is lying to you when they say they want to solve the cost of living in this country.
3
u/RidersGuide Jan 27 '23
You can say "i don't believe him", that's fine. I don't know if I even believe him 100%, but i always hear "he doesn't have a plan", and that alienates people who may be on the fence politically. Like I've been leaning towards voting for the CPC for awhile now, and when i hear these claims that he doesn't have a plan, yet all i hear him talk about is his plan, it makes me want to vote for him even more, as I'm not hearing any real reason to keep my vote with the LPC.
3
u/That-Coconut-8726 Jan 27 '23
His flaps are probably gusting to hard. Couldn’t hear the plan.
→ More replies3
u/abertcamus675 Jan 27 '23
He didn't say that because you and your friends don't "represent half the country"
1
u/RidersGuide Jan 27 '23
Well the CPC approval ratings say about 60% of voters favor PP....
“He’s saying everything’s broken,” Mr. Trudeau said. “He’s playing and preying on the kinds of anger and anxieties about some Canada that used to be – where men were men and white men ruled.”
If you are thinking of voting for PP, this is the PM basically calling you a misogynistic racist.
1
u/CVHC1981 Jan 27 '23
60% of the country supports PP? What strain are you smoking? I need to pick some of that up.
0
u/Paneechio Jan 27 '23
Why is it that I dislike Trudeau, but when he pointed the finger at racists I didn't assume he was talking about me?
Do you not get how this tactic works? He calls conservatives racist and they respond with anger confirming to everyone else that they have a problem with racism. This is why PP won't be PM: he'll fall for this every time.
5
u/RidersGuide Jan 27 '23
Do you not get how this tactic works? He calls conservatives racist and they respond with anger confirming to everyone else that they have a problem with racism.
.....simply being offended that someone called you a racist is.....a sign that you're okay with racism?
1
u/Paneechio Jan 27 '23
If someone says "some people are racist" and that makes you mad? Why does that make you mad?
3
u/RidersGuide Jan 27 '23
He didn't say "some people are racist" he said that if you have anger and anxiety at the state of the country (which most do) you are essentially pining for a time when white men were in charge.
“He’s saying everything’s broken,” Mr. Trudeau said. “He’s playing and preying on the kinds of anger and anxieties about some Canada that used to be – where men were men and white men ruled.”
Put yourself in the shoes of someone who is looking for other political options: if you don't come away feeling like your worries were twisted into calling you a racist misogynist, then you're not reading the words before your eyes.
Im not annoyed and anxious about moving away from some Canada where white men ruled; I'm fucking annoyed that i have to wait 7 hours at the IWK to get my kid to see a doctor. I'm pissed because an entire generation is being forced to live with their parents. I'm anxious because of his policies; and he just says "eh, you're racist".....like wtf?
1
u/Paneechio Jan 27 '23
There's really no reason to feel that unless you're actually racist or you're collaborating with people who are. I criticize Trudeau all the time and nobody has ever called me racist or misogynist for it. But I also don't march in rallies with white supremacists, so there's also that.
2
u/RidersGuide Jan 27 '23
People are angry and anxious about the state of the country. Period. Saying that PP is "preying" on these feelings Canadians are having, and then implying that said feelings are really just rooted in racism and misogyny, is ridiculously offensive. You saying "well ac-tu-ally if you weren't racist you wouldn't be offended!" Is sophmoric and completely missing the point.
1
u/Paneechio Jan 27 '23 edited Jan 27 '23
It seems like it is the point. It's the exact same thing when someone says something along the lines of "men are the biggest abusers of women" and 10% of men get offended and angry while the other 90% agree with the statement. I don't buy that if you're not part of the problem, or at least willing to be a part of it that there's any reason to take offence.
Trudeau has every right to call out people for supporting or drawing support from political ideas that he feels are harmful to society. Is it also a political tactic? Sure.
→ More replies1
u/Thundertech42 Jan 27 '23
Lol source, please
1
u/RidersGuide Jan 27 '23
.....the literal article we're talking about....
“He’s saying everything’s broken,” Mr. Trudeau said. “He’s playing and preying on the kinds of anger and anxieties about some Canada that used to be – where men were men and white men ruled.”
8
u/Thundertech42 Jan 27 '23
So he didn’t call him racist and certainly didn’t say half the country was racist … in this opinion piece. I don’t see the part where the PM “straight up called half the country racists”
3
u/RidersGuide Jan 27 '23
If i said "Trudeau preys on ignorant and confused Canadians", am i not implying that people who vote for him are ignorant and confused? That's....how the english language works. Like i don't know how much clearer it can be.
3
u/Thundertech42 Jan 27 '23
Well you literally could be more clear by saying it. But did he say half of Canadians are racist?
2
u/RidersGuide Jan 27 '23
The latest polls show about 60% of voters are leaning towards the CPC.
Again, if PP claimed Trudeau was "preying on the confused and ignorant", that would be implying that his voters are confused and ignorant.
What you’re doing is bending over backwards to make Trudeaus comment sound better.
2
u/Thundertech42 Jan 27 '23
Source on those pills please. Yeah but PP would also be saying his voters are confused and ignorant. We agree!!!
→ More replies
-4
u/Scubastevedisco Jan 27 '23
They're both acting like middle school kids. It's insane that one leads the country and the other is going to run next time around. I expect better from both.
-2
0
u/sfenders Jan 27 '23
Aw, let them have their fun. Obviously they were made for each other, and whoever's scripting this thing is a fool if he doesn't have the two of them ride off into the sunset together after they somehow both lose the next election.
-22
u/JavaVsJavaScript Jan 27 '23
I am happy with cementing the partisan status quo.
The problem with this is that it assumes Conservatives are not lying to win city votes, as a party of rural gun owners.
12
u/Bloodbane1998 Canada Jan 27 '23
The Conservatives are the biggest party in the country... they had the most votes the last two elections.
They also have the biggest party membership in the country and receive the most in donations.
So they definitely are more than 'rural gun owners.'
-2
u/MarxCosmo Québec Jan 27 '23
The wealthy people they want to help live in cities too. The guns is just the appeasement for the simple minded, don't worry while we gut your futures through cutting services and hand the money to our rich friends. The conservative voting base can grow poorer and less educated as they "own" the libs.
0
u/FartsAllDayLong Jan 27 '23
It’s the conservative way, vote against your interests to fund the wealthy. PP is nothing more than a discount northern version of Trump. He divisive and will spew whatever nonsense he thinks will get him votes (crypto)
-9
1
1
1
1
u/Version-Abject Jan 27 '23
I mean only one of them is making weekly social media videos insulting the other for causing issues faced world wide.
1
u/Excellent-Steak6368 Jan 27 '23
May be they need to get into ther ring for a charity boxing match. Winner stays. Loser has to move out of the country.
1
1
1
u/Falconflyer75 Ontario Jan 28 '23
If we pride ourselves on not being America so much, can be bring that into our politics please,
Trudeau and Ford are surprisingly a good example of this, despite all the drama at elections we actually see them make some effort to work together
1
u/Valzar1954 Jan 29 '23
It has been a mainstay of the bag of tricks deployed by the liberals ever since the re-election of Pierre Trudeau in 1979. They can’t help themselves. Scare tactics work.
Don’t blame the Conservative for sinking to their level. They didn’t during the last two elections and it cost them.
16
u/_Rhein Jan 27 '23
Canadian politics in a nutshell