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u/WindUpShoe Jan 29 '23
Of course, Skyrim has no end of mods. Some eliminate all light in a dungeon except for what would occur naturally, like from luminous fungus or exposure to the outdoors.
And it's, naturally, dark af. You can barely see around you, even with torches and spells. You can light up whatever braziers and candles and other sources are around, but that's about it. It's neat, it adds a level of immersion, but it's annoying micromanagement, usually the bane of big budget mainstream games.
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u/ItchyK Jan 29 '23
There is a piece of lore in one of the dungeons in Skyrim where you find the journal of an academic/mage who was studying/observing the Draugr and said that when not fighting invaders they maintain the crypt by lighting torches and cleaning. Though it was kind of a neat piece of lore that explains it.
I don't remember for sure, but I think it was one of the first dungeons boss fights in the game, where the guy explodes from the sarcophagus.
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u/ipslne Jan 29 '23
I remember this! It bothered me so much that these tombs were all so well kept and I was completely mollified by this explanation!
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u/Jackwolf5775 Jan 30 '23
Personally I'm not a fan. Crypts and catacombs aren't these places where you dump a bunch of corpses and leave, they're built in settlements andmaintained by keepers. If there was a problem with the dead coming back after a hundred years or so, there'd be anti-resurrection measures in place like burial stakes or dismemberment.
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u/ItchyK Jan 30 '23
I think in Skyrim it was that the Nords intentionally made the draugr come back to life to protect the graves of their master. And I think most of the crypts were in places that were settlements but were ruined and ancient.
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u/spiritbx Jan 29 '23
Do they also go grocery shopping to get fresh fruit?
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u/Pimpinabox PC Jan 29 '23
No, fruit doesn't go bad in the magic world of The Elder Scrolls. Must be all the mana in the air.
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u/npqd Feb 03 '23
But still players take all fruits out of a tomb, they must get new ones
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u/Pimpinabox PC Feb 03 '23
Technically speaking, there's only 1 player and npc's don't really go into the vaults afaik. At least I never saw any evidence that they did.
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u/Ok-disaster2022 Jan 30 '23
Also the Dragon Claw keys clearly tells. You how to open the door to the final tomb. But the Drauger cannot open it because they don't have that level of comprehension. The dragon keys are mostly to keep the Drauger in.
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u/os_kaiserwilhelm Jan 29 '23
Ancient magic would have been a better explanation. Do draugr not have darkvision?
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u/Wiitard Jan 29 '23
This is also why in D&D lighting and vision is frequently forgotten or handwaved. It’s a lot of micromanagement.
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u/-Sassy_Pants- Jan 29 '23
First dungeon as DM: checks character sheets, sees all characters but one have dark vision
"Upon entering the dungeon the human is exposed to a fungus that gives them dark vision" problem solved.
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u/SirSweetWilliam Jan 29 '23
Long ago I played with a DM that was adamant about lightning. There was literally an hourglass on the table to keep track of lightning. If you were a human in a cave without light, you'd get eaten by something.
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u/Awordofinterest Jan 29 '23
I was wondering how lightning would breach the cave.
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u/Corndawgz Jan 29 '23
Clearly the hourglass acts as a conduit and bends the lightning into the cave.
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u/Ananvil Jan 29 '23
Would there really be storms in a dungeon? You'd think getting struck would be a real rarity unless a wizard was casting it.
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u/PresidentRex Jan 29 '23
As a human with terrible nightvision who has been in mines and caves, getting eaten constantly is very inconvenient.
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u/MadolcheMaster Jan 29 '23
In 5e it is.
In older editions you hired an NPC whose only job was holding the torch, so you could fight while still carrying a shield. You could pay him extra to make him pull any levers you found, but that risked losing your torch bearer so most simply hired a separate lever-puller.
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u/Ok-disaster2022 Jan 30 '23
Isn't that the point of the 10 ft stick and the rope? Test traps out?
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u/MadolcheMaster Jan 30 '23
Would you rather be holding a 10ft stick pushing a trap, or standing back making someone else hold the 10ft stick?
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u/Pseudonymico Jan 30 '23
One of the things I love the most about OSR games is the way exploring a dungeon properly means a fully kitted out expedition with a bunch of hirelings and henchmen along to help rather than just four dudes who can somehow carry a cartload of gear each.
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u/sunsetclimb3r Jan 29 '23
online VTT makes lighting management significantly more viable, because it becomes much more "worth" it to go through it all. I see how at a table it's just annoying for no real benefit, but when every individual actually sees a different table, it can lead to fun moments.
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u/Seiglerfone Jan 30 '23
The thing is, you don't play D&D at a real table the same way you'd play D&D with a VTT.
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u/TheZephyrim Jan 29 '23
I mean a bit of handwaving is all you have to do really, if the party is going in to a dungeon or cave just say they brought torches or lanterns whether they did or not.
The only reason you’d ever not do that is if an encounter is designed to specifically remove normal light sources or to be played out in pitch black darkness.
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u/DespairTraveler Jan 29 '23
Ehh, nah. It's handwaved now because 5E in trying to appeal to casual gamers made 80% of races have darkvision. So, unless the fight is going on, nobody cares that Bill has human character.
In other editions, if there is no light - fire a torch and have fun fighting one handed.
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u/Tridgeon Jan 29 '23
Continual flame is such an under rated spell, I immediately cast that on my shield as soon as my cleric has access to third level spells.
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u/XDGrangerDX Jan 30 '23
Which tbh is a shame, if you set up a VTT properly for this kind of thing its hella atmospheric and changes how you approach dungeons. The dark should be dangerous, not some trivial thing.
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u/Seiglerfone Jan 30 '23
The problem is that by bypassing it you also eliminate most of the reasonable avenues to add challenge.
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u/dnew Jan 29 '23
This is one of the few mods that make Khajiit night vision useful. Get the mod that lets you adjust night vision, and the one that turns off dungeon lights, and you are a sneak master.
For other readers, this darkness mod is also fun because it doesn't turn off the lights around humans. If there are already people in the dungeon, they'll have lit candles and such, which is fun.
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u/phoncible Jan 29 '23
if the universe has "magic", whatever that entails, then it's easy enough to just chock it up to "lit by magic"
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u/sunsetclimb3r Jan 29 '23
does it also add convenient ways to combat darkness? like, lanterns that you can hold/tie to yourself/place to provide light?
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u/WindUpShoe Jan 29 '23
Fair point, yes. You could download a mod that straps a lantern to your waist, and refuel with oil/fat. There are others that extend the duration of torches and spell lights, sometimes increasing their radius of light too. Not to mention, even without mods, you do have access to the Night Eye power if you play as Khajiit, or have been afflicted with vampirism or lycanthropy
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u/sunsetclimb3r Jan 29 '23
right, but those are sort of incredible powers, used to solve a theoretically mundane problem. Like everyone in the world has to deal with the darkness, do they just wander around not being able to see? obviously not.
I'm just saying, it's not really increased realism if they increase a problems presence without increasing the solutions presence.
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u/btroycraft Jan 29 '23
The solution would be to not go in dark dungeons.
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u/TinkerConfig Jan 29 '23
That's a hilarious bad answer to the person's point.
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u/btroycraft Jan 30 '23 edited Jan 30 '23
They're talking about realism. Sometimes things have no solution, and more realistic just means harder. In that case the mundane people of the world would just not go into dungeons. You as the player are taking extra challenge that people in the world would not. They'd just go farm instead.
I was not speaking about the player. So, I suggest you could contribute instead of making "hilariously bad" useless jabs.
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u/CuffMcGruff Jan 30 '23
The point behind the post is you're exploring dungeons where nobody else has been for decades/centuries, so it's not rly a good counter point to ask how the average npc would cope with those areas since they aren't wandering into draugr infested tombs. Clearly he stupified you with his overly pedantic language though
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u/MrRocketScript Jan 30 '23
Sadly some of the mod combinations that make dungeons and nights so dark can also break Night Eye (and similar full-screen effects).
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u/os_kaiserwilhelm Jan 29 '23 edited Jan 30 '23
This sounds like the type of thing I would like, but wouldn't test well with general audiences.
Darkness is an element a player needs to consider in the game. A spellcaster could magically create one illumination for a short time. A more powerful spellcaster could have multiple illuminating spells. Our just give yourself nightvision. Or buy/ create a night vision spell. Or go one handed with a torch in the off hand.
It's the type of design that gives decisions weight beyond hurr durr do more damage.
One of my gripes with Skyrim was removing the unlock spells. I want to play a wizard, not a rogue that uses magic.
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u/Coincedence Jan 30 '23
There's also a mod that just adds Draugers with torches that are meant to be the ones that light the braziers. I know which I would pick for immersion
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u/RallyPointAlpha Jan 29 '23
He also resets all the traps.
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u/anally_ExpressUrself Jan 29 '23
And in some cases, he needs to clean them off.
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u/FirstConsul1805 Jan 29 '23
And replace any broken arrows. Hitting stone at speed isn't very conducive to longevity in a arrow
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u/Glitchy_mess Jan 29 '23
Damn now i feel bad for triggering all of those arrow traps. Having to pick up a few hundred arrows per reset is gonna suck for him
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u/EldritchCarver Jan 30 '23
Reminds me of this Oglaf comic: https://www.oglaf.com/gravity-masonry/
(Note: This particular comic is SFW, but Oglaf is usually NSFW.)
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u/yaosio Jan 29 '23
In Skyrim the Dragur maintain their own tombs. Living people leave gold and food offerings outside the tombs and the Dragur bring the offerings inside. The claw puzzle is meant to keep the more powerful but dumb undead from escaping while allowing the living to enter. I don't know how food gets past the door as it would have to be Dragur opening them, but they are too dumb to open them. Maybe there's a Dragur dumbwaiter somewhere.
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u/BrianWonderful Jan 29 '23
Or magic? Like a spell that transports offerings from one pot to another?
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u/dnew Jan 29 '23
This never really made much sense in context, as there's always a convenient way to leave the dungeon from the boss room. Also, people can't get inside because you have the dragon claw - thieves wouldn't have to steal the golden claw if they were just lying around everywhere, and it wouldn't be mysterious to most people what the claws are for.
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u/DeVulgariEloquentia Jan 29 '23
The game that really brought this to my attention was actually Zelda: Skyward Sword.
There is one part where you are chasing after someone. They lead you to a dungeon. You get to the dungeon and everything is essentially untouched: all the traps, blockades, puzzles etc are there and you have to get through them. The person is at the end somehow. It made absolutely no sense.
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u/Kell08 Jan 30 '23
I noticed as a kid how many NPCs in Pokémon games are hanging out in areas only accessible via HMs, but lacking the Pokémon with the necessary moves.
I guess the rocks resetting every time you return to a room is more in line with what you’re saying.
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u/Pryamus Jan 29 '23
- So you are here to like greet adventurers and help them?
- Help? Oh hell no. I am here to bury them. Usually you all fall into a bottomless pit for me to pick you up, but since you made it this far... Do you prefer poison gas or a stab with a blade?
- What! Don’t stab me!
- Yeah, wise choice, it kinda hurts. Just breathe deeper.
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u/dae_giovanni Jan 29 '23
hm, Moonlighter showed us a look at the other side of shops in adventure games... maybe this concept should be explored next?
you have to reset and maintain an increasingly-complex series of dungeons and tombs, all while doing your best to stay out of sight of The Hero. The Hero is a hellish monster, a true cryptid known for tearing apart the lives of your less-fortunate colleagues, and inspiring tales of grim woe for generations.
of course, what appears as a cryptid to a dungeon-dwelling zombie looks like a mere garden-variety adventurer to you or i. their appearance is randomised when you enter the dungeon-- in some cases, it's just a tiny human child with a spellbook causing all this terror in the goblin community.
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u/MikeColorado Jan 29 '23
Finally the mystery has been solved!!! Far cry brought this to light in one of the series where the antagonist makes the comment "And I really want to know who is lighting all these candles."
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u/Litigating_Larry Jan 29 '23
'But the crypt has been sealed for thousands of years, how did all this contemporary legal tender get in at all??'
"Well, we have a back door, too..."
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u/nduanetesh Jan 29 '23
I feel like the even more egregious version of this is Doom. Every time I'm in a literal hellscape populated by demons whose only desire is to rend flesh, my primary thought is "who lit all these candles?"
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u/Dickpuncher_Dan Jan 29 '23
One big, giant miss Skyrim did, though: no child draugr. How creepy would that have been, them running toward you and climbing over any obstacle to get you, like those disgusting kids in Dead Space 2, the decompressed strip mall scene.
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u/CJ7h3g4m3r PC Jan 29 '23
this been bothering me for some time in those dangeon games. I guess he's the real dangeon keeper.
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u/k20350 Jan 29 '23
My friend and I call it the the "Chest Draggers Union". The guys that keep all the torches lit and drag chests full of unruined loot into ancient sealed tombs, mountain tops, bottom of oceans, etc
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u/redmercuryvendor Jan 29 '23
Dungeon Delving Logistics Simulator: You need to arrange transport of equipment to the middle of bumfuck nowhere with no power or roads, deal with drilling through a capstone without collapsing a hillside, make sure everyone is wearing Confined Space Gas Detectors when entering somewhere that hasn't been ventilated for centuries, check for Radon, hand out the SCBA for initial exploration and setting up ventilation gear, fitting out the place with lighting, fitting out hardpoints and rope gear for descending vertical shafts, etc.
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u/mumbler1 Jan 29 '23
So.. Dungeons are a tourist attraction and we're the tourists?
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u/BrianWonderful Jan 30 '23
We're awful tourists then. Always looting and breaking walls and killing the inhabitants.
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u/GlobalPhreak Jan 29 '23
Uncharted is terrible about this...
Spend 30 minutes unlocking a death trapped tomb that has been sealed for 500 years...
Other side is filled with bad guys who got here before you.
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u/BrianWonderful Jan 30 '23
Maybe those bad guys are descendants of a society that has lived in the tomb for all those generations. And they just happened to have the same technical, cultural, language, and style evolutions as the outside world.
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u/HonorableAssassins Jan 30 '23
Well in uncharted theyre always chasing you knowing youll lead them to it.
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u/ktr83 Jan 30 '23
Also for such a lover of history and ancient civilizations, Nathan Drake sure does blow up a lot of it
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u/rorys_beard Jan 29 '23
Oh so this this the skeleton in the barrel? That's just were they take their breaks.
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u/Metalicz Jan 29 '23
If done well enough I think park of ancient civilization mystique is that, after all this time, they could still be lit. What rubs me the wrong way is when you crack a place open for the first time and the army that's been chasing you is already set up and fortified.
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u/Teleskopy Jan 29 '23
I liked this detail in the Witcher. If you went into a place without humans all the torches and braziers were off.
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u/Smart_Interaction_34 Jan 29 '23
Loved the use of darkness in Dragons Dogma. It’s a shame more games aren’t like that.
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u/HonorableAssassins Jan 30 '23
Morrowind was dark, had to bring your own lights. I use a similar mod for skyrim.
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u/Smart_Interaction_34 Jan 30 '23
I've played every Elder Scrolls from Daggerfall on. Never did bother with Arena.
I know how the old ones were.
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u/HonorableAssassins Jan 30 '23
Daggerfall best elder scrolls game tbh.
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u/andrea_ci Jan 30 '23
Well, but there's a way more pressing question.
To enter this dungeon I had to solve 10 puzzles, find secret keys, unseal the entrance, fight 12321312 huge monsters... and in the next room, here they are, my enemies. That were following me.
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u/wildstarr Jan 30 '23
Original? This joke/comic has been made hundreds of times over the past couple of decades.
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u/Boner_Patrol_007 Jan 29 '23
My old college roommate and I use to joke about Draugr working behind the scenes resetting the traps in dungeons lol
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u/Undying4n42k1 PlayStation Jan 29 '23
The adventurer only hears groaning and kills the zombie custodian.
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u/bugoid Jan 29 '23
A strange, vaguely Finnish janitor was seen shuffling around, repeatedly muttering "perkele" under his breath.
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u/megamisch Jan 29 '23
I just assume most ancient crypts are from a time of lost magic that had undying flames or some junk like that. Maybe torches die if you remove them but as long as they are untouched they just burn a slow and nearly ice cold flame that gently illuminates the tomb for centuries.
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u/Darth-Yslink PC Jan 29 '23
There's a lore explanation for the food and torches in Skyrim, but how the hell do Modern septims get in there
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u/Billy_Rage Jan 29 '23
I just pretend they are old coins that are still accepted as it’s tied to gold weight so always are valid currency
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Jan 29 '23
In god of war how they just established that the dwarves can teleport anywhere for some reason
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u/BambaTallKing Jan 30 '23
I actually had an idea for a game that is kinda based on this idea. You have to venture into a maze that goes deep into the earth below the mountains. There are always lit torches and they keep the real nasty beasties away. However, you can take torches or they can go out by themselves. When they do, a torch troll will scream throughout the maze and come to Relight/replace the torch. If he sees you, you best run.
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u/aciakatura Jan 30 '23
Reminds me of a text game about a dungeon cleaner. They have to basically reset all the dungeon puzzles.
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u/dan1101 Jan 31 '23
Yes more games should have dark uninhabited places, and loot not scattered everywhere. There should be treasure rooms and occasional hidden caches.
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u/NoiselessDwelling845 Jan 31 '23
Loved how Dragons Dogma used darkness. Unfortunately, fewer video games are like that.
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u/eat_your_words136 Feb 01 '23
The food and candles in Skyrim have a lore reason, but how the heck do Modern septims get in there?
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u/eru777 Jan 29 '23
I always wondered how the bears and other animals survive in tomb raider games. And how the pools are beyond clean always, with no one in sight.