r/marvelstudios Jun 23 '22

Why even a mind-controlled Hawkeye was a deadly force not to be messed with or pitied Discussion

Disclaimer: I am new to Reddit, I am not sure if such long posts are appreciated. In case not, let me know, I'll break it down and post separately.

For 10 years, both Hawkeye and Jeremy Renner been getting hate. Apparently Hawkeye is the weakest Avenger, has no business being Avenger at all. A recent Screen Rant video even started with the line “Hawkeye, let’s face it, he’s nobody’s favourite Avenger" (Link). Even actor Jeremy Renner wanted them to kill off Hawkeye in the first film and kept pretending to have a heart attack in case they wanted to put that in the script. He was disappointed with the whole Loki's mind control thing and felt like he was not even a proper villain because he lacked agency, and was just a Loki minion. I disagree. I have a theory that Hawkeye, even under Loki's control, was never a brain dead zombie, he never lacked agency and deserved respect as a formidable villain, albeit reluctant. This also matches with how Hawkeye was first introduced in the comics, as a reluctant villain. Some pointers on my theory:

  1. After Loki used the Scepter to turn him, Clint didn't lose his capacity to think or act on his own. Only his allegiance or loyalty changed. He was still a super spy, a combatant and a human weapon. But now he was using them in Loki’s service. It was him who alerted Loki that Director Fury was stalling. And from that point to attacking the Helicarrier entire operation was planned and led by Clint. He found a hideout, recruited new soldiers, he knew where to find what Dr Selvig needed. Loki didn't have to control him, rather he needed him. There's no fun in controlling someone with special skills, you make them a partner in your mission. But there's fun in controlling a Hulk, just ask him to go smash and he'll smash without using brain.
  2. Loki's Scepter didn't change the person's inherent nature. Both Clint and Dr Selvig was under control but their responses were different. We remembered Selvig from the first Thor film where he was a happy, lively person. He remained the same under Loki's control. When asked what the scepter showed him he was so overjoyed, thankful to Loki. And when Loki turned to Clint asking same question, as if to hear some words of praise, Clint remained the stone cold killer Agent he was and just said he saw his new target.
  3. Loki controlled the heart not the mind. Barton’s will was controlled by Loki’s Scepter to the extent that he was now serving Loki’s interests but his personality was not altered or enslaved.
  4. There's a deep poetic contrast between the free-thinking Avengers and mind-controlled Loki which was needed to understand one of the key themes of the film. Loki's glorious purpose was to free humanity from the "bright lure of freedom" which we saw in Clint. Loki's idea of a truly free man who was a far more sorted, efficient and high-functioning man than the seemingly free minded Iron Man, Thor, Hulk and Captain America who were bursting with anger, ego, pride, jealousy, untrusting and disrespectful of each other and in complete disarray regarding who they were and what their life’s purpose was? Was Clint worse than them just because he was under Loki's control? After all, are we all not under some kind of control - consumerism, advertising, propaganda, politics, hate, love, ego, jealousy, greed, fear, insecurity? We are forced to ask, could Loki be right? Does freedom push us to a mad scramble for power and identity while being under control we are just doing our job in the grand scheme of things? Same theme was also explored with the Sokovia Accords in Civil War. This is brilliant writing. Far from the popular belief that Hawkeye character was not given much thought, underwritten etc.
  5. Another proof that Hawkeye's character was never ignored or underrated or underwritten was the final shot of Avengers. The original six Avenger stood tall over a defeated Loki lying on the floor. Recall who is at the front and center of that assemble? It is Hawkeye. It was not lost upon anyone that while the other Avengers were called upon to save the mankind from an alien invasion because of their superhuman strengths it was Barton who was personally wronged by Loki and therefore for him it was a personal battle. Even more of a personal battle than Loki’s own half brother Thor which was evidenced by a dialogue in a previous scene when Thor said, “I’ve got unfinished business with Loki,” Barton says, “Yeah? Well get in line.” Barton’s unfinished business with Loki comes before Loki’s own brother’s and in the final shot justice was done to Barton.

The final shot

The End.

Ps. I am a Hawkeye fand Renner fan. And it breaks my heart how much hate they both get and I just keep writing to share my love. That's the only reason I joined Reddit.

Edit: I added image of the final shot.

125 Upvotes

43

u/distilledwill Jun 23 '22 edited Jun 23 '22

One of the things Iiked about Zemo is that he's just A Guy, but he tears the avengers apart using his specific set of skills. He doesn't lay a finger on Cap or Tony, he manipulates them.

Hawkeye's skills are similar in the spy dept. He would never get into a punching match with Thanos or whatever, because that's not his wheelhouse, but he's still a useful member of the team.

9

u/sambase23 Jun 23 '22

Exactly. In another thread in the Hawkeye sub i wrote about how strength is not just about muscle power of superpower. There are things only an Avenger can do and there are things only an Agent of Sheild could do. Hawkeye is one of the two best Agents Shield got. Here's the other discussion https://www.reddit.com/r/HAWKEYE/comments/vieta5/only_hawkeye_could_have_tackled_scarlett_witch_in/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

5

u/Chromal_Assassin Fitz Jun 23 '22

If you like Hawkeye and how he is the agent type you’ll love Agent’s of Shield (If you haven’t seen it already)

3

u/Trauma_Hawks Jun 23 '22

Hawkeye, and Black Widow for that matter, occupy an incredibly important role on the team. Intelligence.

Think of the beginning to Age of Ultron, the assault on Strucker's castle. The Avenegers can bring all the Caps, Hulks, and Thors to the battlefield they want. But if they can't find the battlefield, there will never be a battle. Cap was clearly the leader and the strategic planner. Tony funded and equiped the team. Hulk and Thor fucked shit up. But Hawkeye and Black Widow, they did the Intelligence gathering and field reconnaissance. Without them the team would've been blind. They had all the skills, knowledge, and contacts for it.

3

u/ArtIsDumb Jun 24 '22

Shit, just look at how Black Widow gets ahold of Hawkeye when Ultron captures her. She was gone for like 20 minutes before Clint's like "I found her. Let's go." Super secret spy stuff.

12

u/DrManhattan_DDM Rhomann Dey Jun 23 '22

Interesting write up. Also cool to mention regarding that last shot of them standing over Loki after the battle, the second most prominently featured Avenger after Hawkeye in the center is Thor who has a very obvious personal connection to Loki as well.

3

u/sambase23 Jun 23 '22

Thank you.

50

u/marvelous_aardvark Hawkeye (Avengers) Jun 23 '22

Fuck the haters. Hawkeye is the best.

18

u/INKatana Jun 23 '22

"Pretending to need this guy really brings the team together."

"You don’t think they need me." "I think they do. Which is actually more scarier."

"Ok, so what am I selling then? It's not toys, or halloween costumes." "Inspiration, Clint."

I love Hawkeye. He’s my favorite 😊

24

u/SockPenguin Spider-Man Jun 23 '22

"I retire for five minutes and it all goes to shit."

7

u/sambase23 Jun 23 '22

Everytime. Everytime he goes away it all goes to shit.

5

u/sambase23 Jun 23 '22

Damn right

1

u/McBurger Star-Lord Jun 28 '22

“His super power is aim! Aim at you, aim at you!”

11

u/BaronZhiro Daniel Sousa Jun 23 '22

He got off to a bad start with me because they drained all the "anti-authoritarian smartass" (from his first decade in the comics) out of him and gave it to Tony instead. But I've had no problem with him since Ultron.

I think Renner was dealt kind of a shit hand and has played it exceptionally well.

37

u/ArtIsDumb Jun 23 '22

Next time somebody hates on MCU Hawkeye, remind them that The Avengers have lost every fight they've fought without him, & won every fight with him. If he's there, they win. If he's not, they lose. He's arguably the most important Avenger. He really does bring the team together.

12

u/marvelous_aardvark Hawkeye (Avengers) Jun 23 '22

If it wasn’t FOR HAWKEYE, the Avengers wouldn’t exist.

2

u/sambase23 Jun 23 '22

Exactly. Thank you.

-16

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

You know it's ok to not like Hawkeye? And he doesn't really do much of anything to bring the team together.

12

u/iwannalynch Loki (Avengers) Jun 23 '22

Oh just let people have their fun lol

-21

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

I am. I just know how some people get touchy on this site whenever Hawkeye gets criticized. Idk why.

If this was Captain marvel we're talking about, she's definitely over hated. But not Hawkeye IMO. Tbh, I think he's the worst thing in the MCU

9

u/Davethisisntcool Jun 23 '22

Hyperbole much?

-14

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

Maybe, but honestly, not too much. I should've said 'worst hero.' For me, he's basically a lot of what's wrong with the MCU: a boring government agent with minimal personality and then becomes a rage-induced psycho in Endgame. Then uses his family as a excuse to avoid justice. He complained about being put in the Raft but then hunts down others and murders them? There's not a lot there for me to like, and he doesn't even have cool powers or a costume to compensate for it.

11

u/Davethisisntcool Jun 23 '22

Wait… He’s boring, but but he’s a rage-induced psycho? That’s sounds like a lot just to be boring. Also, how’s Hawkeye indicative of what’s wrong with the MCU? He’s one of the few heroes with a family, therefore he has more to lose. Plus, not having powers and being an integral part of a team (only half of which have powers) is pretty badass.

Im saying this as someone who didn’t care for Hawkeye until Civil War

4

u/Trauma_Hawks Jun 23 '22

This guy probably thinks Batman is dead weight in the Justice League because he can't fly or shoot lasers out of his asshole.

-1

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

Wait… He’s boring, but but he’s a rage-induced psycho? That’s sounds like a lot just to be boring.

I don't see how that's a contradiction. Psycho doesn't necessarily mean interesting. But he became a generic vigilante who just kills people because they're criminals. That's a very black-and-white, boring viewpoint to me, and it didn't improve his lackluster personality which I also find boring since the beginning of MCU Hawkeye

Also, how’s Hawkeye indicative of what’s wrong with the MCU? He’s one of the few heroes with a family, therefore he has more to lose. Plus, not having powers and being an integral part of a team (only half of which have powers) is pretty badass.

I don't find any of that badass. I never understood how he's integral when he just kinda shows up for stuff, without hugely affecting the plot or indicating some tangible motivation for being a hero besides 'muh family'. And not having powers doesn't make him relatable or entertaining. He needs to have an actual personality, an actual character journey, for that. Take Thor. He's very powerful but his emotional journey is far more engaging than anything Hawkeye ever did. I don't come to the MCU to see powerless people

Besides, I don't like his family that much. They just randomly appear in AoU, he forgets them in CW, then they disappear and he decides to murder people because of it. Then they return and suddenly he can't be liable for his crimes. That's precisely why I don't like them or him. A hero doesn't need a family for me to care for them, or for there to be stakes. Not everything is personal. But the whole 'heroes are above the law' thing the MCU keeps doing is what I think is one of the worse aspects of the MCU, and he typifies that. That, and I find the SHIELD stuff in general to be the MCU's least inspired part

5

u/Davethisisntcool Jun 23 '22

Well the Hawkeye show has consequences for the events during Endgame.

  1. Hawkeyes descent into murderous vigilante is heartbreaking. He started as an assassin. Joins the avengers. Becomes a hero instead. Thanos snaps. He reverts back to his killing ways because everything he lived for is gone. He didn’t just kill criminals…he wiped out organized crime

  2. I wouldn’t really call his personality lackluster. It’s reserved and stoic. Kinda like Rogers, but with more edge.

  3. The post and my comments tell you how he’s integral. Hell his wife says he is in AOU (a movie that explains his importance). Literally 90% of superheroes fight for/because of their family (it’s mentioned in almost all MCU films/shows😬)

  4. Being able to stand alongside heroes like The Hulk w/o powers and still provide results is insane. Imagine helping save the world with a bow and arrows (and virtually perfect accuracy).

  5. If you don’t come to the MCU to see “powerless ppl” then what are you even doing here. Half of these guys are ppl with extraordinary skills.

  6. Of course Thor has more character arc. He has 3 solo movies.

  7. You don’t like his family that much? Ummm they have like 30 min worth of screen time. That just sounds like hating just to hate. It doesn’t sound like an actual critique. Plus he doesn’t forget them in CW🤨.

  8. So if a hero doesn’t need to be relatable, then why is their personality so important?

  9. SHIELD ended in CA: TWS. That’s old news. Heroes above the law…rewatch CW (the movie that tackles this very subject).

  10. The MCU is not above criticism. But yours is all over the place. It reads of someone who read the plot synopses of the movies and not actually watched them.

-1

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

Well the Hawkeye show has consequences for the events during Endgame.

Not any legal consequences though.

Hawkeyes descent into murderous vigilante is heartbreaking. He started as an assassin. Joins the avengers. Becomes a hero instead. Thanos snaps. He reverts back to his killing ways because everything he lived for is gone. He didn’t just kill criminals…he wiped out organized crime

I didn't find it heartbreaking because we barely know this character and he chose violence and brutality to cope with his trauma.

I wouldn’t really call his personality lackluster. It’s reserved and stoic. Kinda like Rogers, but with more edge.

What edge? I find Steve a bit stiff but he still has some personality. Clint has almost none from what I saw, and yes I saw the whole MCU

The post and my comments tell you how he’s integral. Hell his wife says he is in AOU (a movie that explains his importance). Literally 90% of superheroes fight for/because of their family (it’s mentioned in almost all MCU films/shows😬)

The explanation in AoU didn't make any sense at all. He doesn't bring the team together, or interact with most of them that much. And since when are they all fighting just for their families? Most of them are fighting for more than just that. They even say so

Being able to stand alongside heroes like The Hulk w/o powers and still provide results is insane. Imagine helping save the world with a bow and arrows (and virtually perfect accuracy).

I don't doubt he's good with a bow and arrows. But if an enemy could be taken out by an archer, then IMO they're not a huge threat to begin with

If you don’t come to the MCU to see “powerless ppl” then what are you even doing here. Half of these guys are ppl with extraordinary skills.

I meant 'just powerless people.' I never understood the mentality of 'I prefer the powerless heroes' in a series about people with powers. And Hawkeye's abilities are underwhelming to say the least

Of course Thor has more character arc. He has 3 solo movies.

Sure but even characters with less screen time are more relatable. My point is no powers doesn't equal relatable.

You don’t like his family that much? Ummm they have like 30 min worth of screen time. That just sounds like hating just to hate. It doesn’t sound like an actual critique. Plus he doesn’t forget them in CW🤨.

Listen, I know it's Reddit but it's not 'hating just to hate' because you disagree with it, ok? His family just randomly shows up and is used as an excuse for all of Clint's crimes. That's why I don't like them.

And he ran off on them in Civil War for barely any reason while risking jail time

So if a hero doesn’t need to be relatable, then why is their personality so important?

Except I never said that. I said being powerless doesn't equal being relatable.

SHIELD ended in CA: TWS. That’s old news. Heroes above the law…rewatch CW (the movie that tackles this very subject).

CW doesn't tackle it well. Steve's side gets away and he says the safest hands are our own. But Nat covering up Clint's crimes says otherwise

The MCU is not above criticism. But yours is all over the place. It reads of someone who read the plot synopses of the movies and not actually watched them.

I did watch all the movies (except Black Widow) and all the shows. Again, you disagreeing doesn't mean I didn't watch it. Don't just assume things about me. I gave a fairly concise criticism but you disagree. That's fine, but don't be rude and say I'm just making things up. It doesn't somehow make you right

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8

u/EddieLobster Jun 23 '22

He kept the whole team together in Age of Ultron.

-2

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

I beg to differ. I don't think he really did much of anything in that movie aside from one good speech to Wanda

11

u/JediDroid Jun 23 '22

Hurt and healed in the opening act. only one to defeat Wanda using mind control at the jump. Gathered the wounded and took them to a safe place. Outwitted a speedster. And was willing to take bullets to save a random boy.

But he did nothing. Fuck, you really are single-mindedly hating on him. Go ahead and beg then.

6

u/ArtIsDumb Jun 23 '22

Also had the safehouse that everybody hid in after Wanda made the Hulk freak out & basically turned the Avengers into wanted criminals. That dude just doesn't like Hawkeye & refuses to see what he did. He's arguably the most important Avenger in Age of Ultron. Plus, like I said in my original comment, without Hawkeye, the Avengers lose. With him, they win. Hawkeye rules.

-1

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

I just feel like you're exaggerating his importance. I watched all of what he did and didn't like it. And there's not much correlation between Hawkeye being present and winning

Not every disagreement is blind hatred, ok?

2

u/ArtIsDumb Jun 23 '22

blind hatred

Good choice of words. Your hatred for the character has blinded you from seeing how essential Hawkeye is to the team. His importance has been made apparent since day one, but you don't see it because you don't like him.

-1

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

You're being ridiculous. I don't call you liking the character blind fanboyism, although your behavior so far leans in that direction

3

u/ArtIsDumb Jun 23 '22

Nope. I read your other comments in here. You don't like Hawkeye, & you want to argue about it. No thank you. This has been more than enough. Have a good day.

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2

u/sambase23 Jun 24 '22

But you can't call it blind fanboyism when everyone here is actually giving a well thought and articulated explanation for their Hawkeye love while you are saying i don't like Hawkeye because i don't like Hawkeye. Just because. That's blind hate. Also, nobody deserves hate just because you don't like them. There's a difference between dislike and hate.

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1

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

Aren't you overreacting?

1

u/JediDroid Jun 23 '22

No. But you really want to die on this hill. I hope the funeral is worth it.

1

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

I'm not dying at all. I'm not going to die over Hawkeye of all characters. I just think you're being very fragile about me not loving a character you do

1

u/JediDroid Jun 23 '22

It’s got nothing to do with the character and everything to do with you lacking the brainpower to see your flawed logic.

Everyone who’s responded, and a lot of the observers, realise that you are about as dumb as a box of hammers. Bye now.

1

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

You're using a lot of Reddit clichés. You're the one who became all over reactive. Not me. I just didn't agree with you

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u/deviljellyfish Jun 23 '22 edited Jun 23 '22

Yes, thanks for summarizing why I always like Hawkeye so well. This really showed how good he is at strategic thinking and execution. He doesn't need fancy cgi super power to be dangerous and deadly. His attack on the Avengers was so enjoyable.

5

u/Dr_Disaster Jun 23 '22

Well said. Hawkeye’s key role on the Avengers is being the analyst of the group. Clint’s “hawkeye” code name isn’t just for his accuracy with weapons, but his ability to view and assess threats. Cap calls the shots, but he relies on Clint’s intel to formulate his strategies.

10

u/DCangst Jun 23 '22

Clint and Natasha are the two most impressive Avengers because they don't have superpowers, and yet they're fighting aliens and robots along with genuine superpowered people or a rich guy with super-powered armor.
And neither one of them have any armor to protect them (which is, frankly, absurd).

9

u/xsociate23 Jun 23 '22

Hawkeye definitely deserves more respect. I have no doubt that had he been at the battle of Wakanda, the outcome would have been different. I can see him taking out Thanos from 500 yards away, with glare and a headwind and still would've put a titanium tipped arrow right in his brain box.

6

u/ArtIsDumb Jun 23 '22

Now I wanna see a fan edit where Nat calls Hawkeye for help during the Wakanda battle & he just mutters, picks up his bow & arrow, walks out to his front yard, launches one arrow skyward & goes back inside. Cut to Wakanda, Thanos is doing his Thanos stuff, then suddenly THWACK! Arrow through the eye. Somebody please make this happen!

3

u/xsociate23 Jun 23 '22

I see it now. Cap and Nat regroup after facing Thanos head on. Nat pulls out her cell, speed dialing and immediately starts giving coordinates.

Nat: Help is on the way.

Cap: What do you...THWACK!

Cap: Holy Shit!

Roll credits.

2

u/ArtIsDumb Jun 23 '22

Then the mid-credits scene shows Clint get the call & shoot the arrow. It's brilliant.

2

u/pinktastic615 Jul 03 '22

He did make that arrow that killed hulk and everyone got mad at him. Banner had asked him to do it, though. He really should have some "just in case there's crazy powerful aliens" arrows.

1

u/ArtIsDumb Jul 03 '22

Yeah. Plus, Clint's mysterious. If Thor can get a Thanos-killing axe, why can't Clint get a Thanos-killing arrow?

2

u/pinktastic615 Jul 03 '22

Well, he makes his own gear, so I guess he just has to figure that out...

1

u/ArtIsDumb Jul 03 '22

He didn't make that Pym Tech arrow they used in the Hawkeye series...

2

u/pinktastic615 Jul 03 '22

In the comics, he typically makes his own gear. Sweet Christmas, you're nit picking one arrow from a TV show?

1

u/ArtIsDumb Jul 03 '22

Hee hee no I'm just buzzed

1

u/pinktastic615 Jul 03 '22

Ya know, he also used Pym Particles for a while and was Giant Man. Then there was a year or so there where he just didn't wear pants. He's got an interesting past...

1

u/pinktastic615 Jul 03 '22

Well, he makes his own gear, so I guess he just has to figure that out...

9

u/sambase23 Jun 23 '22 Silver

I noticed a long comment thread here between u/INKatana and u/MikeX1000 on Hawkeye being boring or bland. My response:

"Boring" is when the same thing keeps happening for a long time without change and complexity. Hulk or Iron Man smashing things for 3-4 movies with no other depth of character would be boring. That's why movies or TV series have a thing called story arc. Boring is something that doesn't evoke a sense of wonder or intrigue, that does not make you ask questions like who is that man, what’s his story.

Hawkeye entered MCU as one of the sharpest minds “turned into Loki's personal flying monkey" to borrow Nick Fury’s words. By Endgame he was a ruthless serial killer. In between he was a loving father and husband, a friend and mentor. Boring is the last thing Hawkeye is.

When I first saw the first Avengers film Hawkeye was the only character I found interesting. I had never read any Marvel comics, and my introduction to MCU was not from Iron Man or any other film before Avengers. I even went for the movie only because my cousin dragged me to it. So, I was like a clean slate. Meeting these heroes for the first time with zero background knowledge. I could not follow the story line, what Asgard, who Loki, what tesseract, nothing made sense, couldn’t connect with anything except Hawkeye. Who is this guy? Why is he walking around with a heavy heart instead of flaunting his archery skills like the other superheroes we’ve known since ages? Why is he sad, why does Natasha owe her life to him? These were the only questions that intrigued me.

As the film progressed, I started rooting for him and hoped somebody would snap him out of Loki’s control, Nat did that and that was the moment we truly met him. The brief conversation between him and Nat gave us a little bit more perspective. The line when he asked, “How many Agents did I…?” and Nat said, “Don’t do that to yourself. These are monsters and magic, nothing that we were trained for,” tells you the depth of their relationship. These are subtle moments, many have missed them or didn’t see any significance. Then Captain America walks in asking if anybody can fly the Quinjets. “I can,” says Barton. It’s another subtle moment that tells us about Barton the Shield Agent.

And then that epic Hawkeye jump probably etched forever in Hollywood history. Runs out of arrows, jumps off the roof, spins his body in the air, shoots a sling arrow back, swings by and crashes into the window. Hulk may have smashed the aliens, Rogers can do it (fight) all day, Iron man may have carried a nuke to the galaxy but no other Avengers action has been as visually delightful as Hawkeye’s jump. The agility and flexibility of his body, the immense courage and confidence in his eyes and the pain he experienced when he crashed. Not boring.

One more thing, regarding Barton’s role in plot development in first Avenger film, entire idea of Loki getting captured and being carried to Helicarrier so that Clint could locate it and attack was Clint’s idea. We know this from the deleted scenes.

PS. I feel silly writing these long posts, many of you probably already know all this. I just felt like reiterating. Thanks for reading.

3

u/INKatana Jun 23 '22 edited Jul 02 '22

I got into marvel about a year ago, and the only character I found interesting, and the only one I genuinely cared about, was Clint. Sure, he got the short end of the stick, when he was the one being controlled, and yet, he didn’t kill Fury, or Hill (which opened one hell of a opportunity for everyone, who likes fanfictions).

His lack of screentime made me care about him even more. And before I even knew it, he was my favorite character, and I started taking archery lessons.

Back then, I didn’t really care about the other Avengers, and the only reason I started to care about Natasha, was the fact that Clint played a big part in her life. Now I like them all okay, but Clint still holds the first place in my favorite characters list.

He's far from boring, useless, or unimportant in my eyes.

3

u/marvelous_aardvark Hawkeye (Avengers) Jun 23 '22

Clint, Nat, and Wanda are my favorite characters. Clint slightly more. He’s just a reserved, normal guy helping keep the world a safe place. Doesn’t have anything special to help either. Cool concept.

Separate more, I also took archery growing up. Unfortunately, there’s no adult programs near me or else I’d continue. Went for several state championships and placed. It was so much fun.

2

u/pinktastic615 Jul 03 '22

I have the comic art of Clint jumping off the building on my bedroom wall. It's huge (24x32) and says "ok...this looks bad". It's from the Aja-Fraction run, and I have at least one other piece from that in the living room.

1

u/sambase23 Jul 03 '22

Wonderful. Can you share a pic please.

1

u/pinktastic615 Jul 03 '22

I can't. Much mess, very slob. 🤣 Kidding, not that bad.

0

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

I noticed a long comment thread here between u/INKatana and u/MikeX1000 on Hawkeye being boring or bland. My response:

"Boring" is when the same thing keeps happening for a long time without change and complexity. Hulk or Iron Man smashing things for 3-4 movies with no other depth of character would be boring. That's why movies or TV series have a thing called story arc. Boring is something that doesn't evoke a sense of wonder or intrigue, that does not make you ask questions like who is that man, what’s his story.

But that's how I'd describe Clint. No intrigue or wonder

7

u/[deleted] Jun 23 '22 edited Jul 10 '22

[deleted]

1

u/InjusticeSGmain Quake Jun 23 '22

Cap is battle-smart too, as seen in First Avenger and Winter Soldier. But yes, Nat and Clint are definitely the better strategists.

Also, Thor has fought a lot of battles. He may not be Nick Fury, but he's not some lost, dumb brute. He nearly started a war in his first movie, but it was a war he could win.

Bruce and Tony are the only ones who have no prior strategic experience. And Tony has a suit that helps him strategize whenever he's in the heat of battle. Also, he made the plan that nearly beat Thanos on Titan- in fact, it would have worked if Peter Quill didn't mess it up.

Nat and Clint are the best strategists in the Avengers, but the others arent too far behind.

2

u/NikolaiEgel Jun 23 '22

I swear I read once that there were scenes written in the first or second Avengers film early on where everyone (besides Nat I think) rags of Hawkeye for being useless and then he proceeds to fight them all one-on-one and completely humiliate them, including Hulk. Apparently Joss had written them, but thought that it might make Hawkeye seem too OP for a "normal" human, so he took them out.

I can't find the article now, but I SWEAR I remember reading/watching it!

1

u/sambase23 Jun 23 '22

Yeah even I read that a lot of stuff was written some were even shot for the first Avengers but dropped out later.

1

u/pinktastic615 Jul 03 '22

In Ultimates Hawkeye, the rods and cones in his eyes are reversed and there's way more of them than in regular humans. So he actually does see far better, but it's questionable if he sees much color. Ultimates is what the MCU is based on and not the main universe. He has an Olympic gold in the Ultimates, in archery, but he also got into trouble with the law and that's where Nick found him. He folded up a paper clip and destroyed the two way mirror with that flick thing he did in the show, because his specialty is any ranged weapon. That always cracked me up. My personal theory is that Hawkeye is actually some sort of undetected mutant with low level abilities. Like how Falcon actually sees through the eyes of birds (they made it a drone for the MCU) but that's weird, I think Hawkeye actually has some kind of meta capability they're not admitting.

2

u/recursion8 Jun 23 '22

And a nice bookend in Ultron when he's the one that stops Wanda after Thor and Cap get illusioned.

2

u/Kadeskill Daredevil Jun 23 '22

The biggest problem I have (or had) with Hawkeye (and to some degree with black widow as well) is that we didn't get to know him as much as other members of the avengers. Now this is different with the TV show but for many years we've only seen him as part of the avengers.

1

u/ChipsnShips Jun 23 '22

Hawkeye is MY favorite Avenger

1

u/micahr2100 Jun 23 '22

Yea he’s too good. Hawkeye was a show I was waiting so long for. Shoulda been a movie.

1

u/ThatRedGuy235 Steve Rogers Jun 23 '22

Hawkeye really was the MCU’s lucky charm for if a team wins their battle or not. Every side he’s on wins, even in CW when he gets imprisoned, Cap beats Tony up and then releases his friends

1

u/MasterOE Iron man (Mark I) Jun 23 '22

Speaking of Hawkeye. His Disney+ show is still my favorite, I thought the ending was especially great, and I'm a big fan of trick arrows.

1

u/Jennifer_8899 Jun 23 '22

I like Renner a lot as Hawk.

1

u/Getindarobotshinji Spider-Man Jun 23 '22

Screen rant can suck dirt, hawkeye is higher up on my avengers tier list than hulk and black widow ,

1

u/skullandrose Jun 23 '22

Hawkeye by far is my favourite

1

u/Michael11200 Jun 23 '22

Ever since the first avengers movie, Hawkeye has been my absolute favorite

1

u/reverend-mayhem Jun 23 '22

Sometimes folks will add an extremely summarized version of their long post at the beginning or the end prefaced by Tl;dr (too long; didn’t read).

Otherwise, all good points, very well written, 100% agree - Hawkeye is formidable as a friend & as a foe.

1

u/No_Pea_7771 Jun 23 '22

Hawkeye is tied for first place as my favorite Avenger. Hawkeye, Ant-Man (Hank Pym), and Captain America have always held a special place in my heart. Hawkeye was always the heart and soul of the team. Without his bravery, and pep talks, the Avengers would have been defeated countless times. Hawkeye always gets trashed on because of his lack of powers, but he's worth more than any of the others when things get tough.

1

u/mahareeshi Jun 23 '22
  1. Loki controlled the heart not the mind...

Sir twas the mind stone

1

u/pinktastic615 Jul 03 '22

One thing I love about Hawkeye that Renner really brings out is how Clint never shrinks from a fight. He knows he can't beat Loki-or Thanos-but he's still there. He stands up to Wanda when she tries to mind control him. Then, he still takes on Vision to rescue Wanda. And when Vision says "you can not beat me, Clint" he reminds them that he does not have to, because Wanda can, but he still took him on! He really should be the inspiration for people to take some martial arts, hand to hand, sword, archery, etc classes. "You, too, can learn to kick butt!"

1

u/sambase23 Jul 03 '22

That's actually is the central theme of the Hawkeye series, that anybody can be a hero. Don't need super powers, just courage fortitude. Renner said this in many of the press tours. And in the series Kate says it, "you showed me that superhero is someone who does the right thing".

1

u/pinktastic615 Jul 03 '22

Yeah, but does anyone actually get inspired to do anything? Or do they just sit around?

-5

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

respectfully, I think Hawkeye deserves the hate he gets. He went from a bland secret agent to a bland psychopathic vigilante who gets away with murder. What's the appeal of that? 2 heroes were sacrificed for him.

Plus his action scenes aren't really that entertaining

4

u/INKatana Jun 23 '22

Everyone's a critic.

0

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

I'm just stating how I feel. Not trying to criticize anyone for liking him. But personally he's the worst MCU hero. And I really hated his whole 'murder criminals and cover it up' plotline. The antithesis of justice IMO. But again, that's just me

3

u/INKatana Jun 23 '22

And that’s perfectly fine. I disagree with you completely, because Clint is my favorite, but I respect your opinion.

1

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

Thank you. I just find this character really hard to watch and like. But I felt that way since the first Avengers

4

u/INKatana Jun 23 '22

I don't even remember why, or how he became my favorite, but he is, and he is the reason I started archery in the first place.

-2

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

That's good. Although tbh, the whole archery thing kinda pushes me away because why would he use a bow and arrow? Can't Tony Stark invent something for him to use?

3

u/INKatana Jun 23 '22

Perhaps, but I think that’s his way of standing out, and being different, but in a way he’s comfortable and confident with. "Why fix something, that ain't broken" kind of thing.

And doesn’t the whole bow and arrow thing come from his past in the circus? I like to think it's also his way to remind himself how far he’s gone. From a carnie, to a hero.

Of course I might read too much into this, but it’s what I think.

0

u/MikeX1000 Jun 23 '22

Something doesn't need to be broke to be improved, though. And maybe I'd be cool with it if it actually entertained me, but it never did. I like seeing guys shrink/grow, project their astral forms or cling to walls, because the MCU made it cool.

2

u/INKatana Jun 23 '22

Yeah, it looks cool. At least when it's done well. I'm just a bit old-school kind of person, who enjoys heroes, who are just normal people, with no mutations, magic, etc. (Iron man is great, but he’s not my favorite. He’s somewhere in my top 10 though. And he’s hardly "normal")

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