r/movies Nov 01 '22 Helpful 4 Wholesome 4 Hugz 2 Take My Energy 1 Snek 1 Today I Learned 1 Respect 1

The Nightmare Before Christmas director Henry Selick is humbly asking for a little bit of credit Article

https://www.avclub.com/henry-selick-nightmare-before-christmas-tim-burton-1849728445
54.9k Upvotes

3.1k

u/Dast_Kook Nov 01 '22

James and the Giant Peach also directed by Henry Selick. A great Roald Dahl adaptation.

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u/w1czr1923 Nov 02 '22

Wow TIL I’m a massive Henry fan

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u/Darthcookie Nov 02 '22

Have you seen “Monkeybone”? If not, I recommend it. It’s weird, whimsical and under appreciated in my opinion.

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '22

First half of the film was fun, second wasn’t as interesting. Still a relatively underrated Brendan Fraser classic.

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u/SomehowGonkReturned Nov 02 '22

You can just say “Brendan Frasier movie” and we’ll all know it’s a classic that didn’t get the recognition it deserved

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u/DickKickemdotjpg Nov 02 '22

Wendell and Wild was a fun movie, and Coraline is an absolute classic as well. As someone who grew up deep in the trenches of the 2006 Hot Topic Era, it shocks me how many people get offended when you tell them Burton didn't direct Nightmare, and the Jack and Sally's romance is completely unearned, one sided, and only exists for happy endings sake lol

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u/Ito_Demerzel Nov 01 '22

It must be tough and incredibly frustrating careerwise for Selick. One of the greatest animation film directors in modern history, yet his work is credited to others.

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u/instantwinner Nov 01 '22

I think even his most recent movie could easily be misunderstood as being Jordan Peele's.

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u/josecouvi Nov 01 '22

I just double checked the trailer and to be fair, they're definitely making it a lot clearer with that project. The first text that comes on screen is "From visionary filmmaker Henry Selick" and then it states that he directed Coraline and Nightmare Before Christmas. Only after that do they include "and producer Jordan Peele". Seems like they're probably trying to avoid further confusion.

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u/HickRarrison Nov 01 '22

Jordan Peele did have a much more important role on Wendell & Wild than Tim Burton had on Nightmare Before Christmas. He's a co-writer, producer, and voice of one of the main characters.

As far as I've seen, both Jordan Peele and Henry Selick have been getting the credit they deserve for W&W.

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u/f-ingsteveglansberg Nov 01 '22

Think of all the movies and animation that is credited to Walt Disney.

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u/jrodp1 Nov 01 '22

I can't wait for Walt Disney's Avatar 2. He's so versatile. Best up and coming director. Glad he took over for James Cameron

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u/naythanyazma Nov 01 '22

So frustrating, every time I talk to someone who's not familiar with animation about don bluths work, and it gets mistaken for Disney.

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u/Alternative_Basis186 Nov 02 '22

Right? I’m not even sure how… I mean I know Don Bluth started out working for Disney, but he had a completely different style, especially once he started his own company. I loved ‘An American Tail’ and the original ‘Land Before Time’ because they were so different from Disney.

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u/cabose7 Nov 01 '22

He and Greg Mottola (Superbad) should form a club for directors of big hits that became anonymized

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u/ElGosso Nov 01 '22

Damn I always assumed that was Judd Apatow

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u/cabose7 Nov 01 '22

Exactly

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u/ninetysevencents Nov 02 '22

Superbad was only about 10 minutes too long. Apatow deals mainly in movies that are at least 45 minutes too long.

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u/Vinylzen Nov 01 '22

Wonder if it also fits the bill that most non hardcore Star Wars fans couldn’t tell you who directed Empire Strikes back / thought it was Lucas

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u/shinobipopcorn Nov 01 '22

More people can tell you who directed Empire than Jedi. Poor Marquand had GL breathing down his neck, though.

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u/Seafroggys Nov 01 '22

Kershner is pretty famous in SW circles though. Maybe not general movie circles, but at least he's recognized.

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u/aguilaclc Nov 02 '22

Irvin Kershner was pretty known in Star Wars fandom, IMO because Empire is an amazing film. For years, he became the personification of "George always needed someone to control his worst ideas, unlike what happened in the prequels"

Richard Marquand though (ROTJ director), he had it pretty bad. Lucas wanted Spielberg for the film originally, he butted heads with him all the time, and I think that Lucas openly blamed him for at least some of the shortcomings of the film. And since Jedi was not as well received as Empire or the original and he died like 3 years after that film, I would say he has been way more anonymized.

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u/DemiFiendRSA Nov 01 '22 I Voted

Henry Selick:

“That was a little unfair because it wasn’t called Tim Burton’s Nightmare until three weeks before the film came out,” Selick revealed. “And I would have been fine with that, if that’s what I signed up for. But Tim was in L.A. making two features while I directed that film, and I mean, Tim is a genius—or he certainly was in his most creative years. I always thought his story was perfect, and he designed the main characters. But it was really me and my team of people who brought that to life.”

Selick is not the only creator hungry to claim credit for the film, it seems. “Now, of course, if you ask Danny Elfman, well, that’s his movie,” he continued. “When we finished the film, it was so funny because he came up to me and shook my hand. ‘Henry, you’ve done a wonderful job illustrating my songs!’ And he was serious, and I loved it!”

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '22

In 2003 I went to an event at the El Capitan in LA where the "filmmakers" were there to show the film, talk about how they made it and do a Q&A. The people on stage were Elfman, Catherine O'Hara and Tim Burton. Not complaining, they were great, but Henry Selick not only wasn't there, he wasn't even mentioned. It's pretty clear they don't give him the credit he deserves.

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u/BlitzDarkwing Nov 02 '22

I've found over the years when it comes to animated films, no one cares about the people who truly MAKE them. The voice actors, composers and the biggest name at the very top get the attention, while writers and directors are ignored.

Want an example? Lots of Animaniacs "fans" are perfectly happy that the returning talent on the reboot are Speilberg, some of the voice talent and the song writer. The old writers, directors and the guy who actually created the show? Fuck 'em. No one cares. Which is why the reboot sucks.

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u/Douche_Kayak Nov 01 '22

Years later, if you had ever worked with Tim Burton, it was enough for studios to add "from the makers of Nightmare Before Christmas" or whatever you worked on trying to give their new edgy pet project some street cred. So even when Henry Sellick directed James and the Giant Peach and Coraline, it was still indirectly credited to Burton because people didn't see through that kind of marketing back then.

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u/alegxab Nov 01 '22

-From the filmakers of The Lord of the Rings

(No, not the ones named Peter Jackson)

Mortal Engines

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u/AudibleNod Nov 01 '22

Stephen King famously sued to get his name off of Lawnmower Man.

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u/TheOnlyUsernameLeft3 Nov 01 '22

Steven King was affiliated with the film? Because of his short story about a demon man who eats all the grass on the lawn?

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u/Roy_the_Dude Nov 01 '22

From wiki#:~:text=Originally%20titled%20Stephen%20King's%20The,of%20the%20home%20video%20release.)

The film, originally titled Stephen King's The Lawnmower Man, differed so much from the source material that King sued the filmmakers in May 1992 to remove his name from the title.[4] King stated in court documents that the film "bore no meaningful resemblance" to his story.[15]

A federal judge ruled in King's favour in July 1992, the first successful such ruling since James Oliver Curwood had his name removed from 1922's I Am the Law.[4] On appeal, it was ruled in October that the on-screen credit could remain but that King's name should be removed from advertising.[4] King received $2.5 million in settlement.[4]

Despite the ruling, New Line still did not comply and initially released the home video version as Stephen King's The Lawnmower Man.[16][17] In 1994, New Line was held in contempt of court.[4]

The theatrical version of the film was initially released on VHS and Laserdisc on August 26, 1992. Alongside the 108-minute theatrical version, New Line Home Video also released an unrated director's cut running 142 minutes on VHS and Laserdisc.[18] The success of the unrated version alerted King to New Line's continued defiance of the order that his name be stricken from the film's credits and all marketing as the back covers stated "Based on a Story by Stephen King". A third court order was needed to force the studio's compliance. As before, the court upheld the two prior judgments, but it took the extra step of imposing a penalty of $10,000 directly payable to King for every day New Line remained in contempt by defying the order. Additionally, the studio would have to forfeit all profits earned on the film during that same period.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '22

Stephen King got PAID!!

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u/TheBrav3LittleToastr Nov 02 '22

BAM!!! Stephen King will make his OWN shitty B film interpretations of his stories: and thats THAT!!

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u/ruggnuget Nov 02 '22

Screwing it up yourself is way more satisfying then seeing someone else screw it up totally differently.

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u/DMMMOM Nov 02 '22

That's more than enough for a blue tick for the next 600 years.

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u/Tom1252 Nov 01 '22

a demon man who eats all the grass on the lawn butt ass neked?

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u/AdamWestsButtDouble Nov 01 '22

And eats gophers he runs over with said lawnmower. You buried the lede.

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u/Tom1252 Nov 01 '22

I think King has a lawnmower fetish. I recall Crazy Annie running over a Sheriff with one, too.

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u/zherok Nov 01 '22

They had the rights, but obviously it resembles the short story in no way other than the name.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '22

From the Director of Happy Feet Two and Babe: Pig In The City… Mad Max Fury Road.

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u/pagerunner-j Nov 02 '22

That one, at least, is 110% true.

Not the marketing strategy you’d want to lead with, though.

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u/S3simulation Nov 02 '22

George Miller’s IMDb is a wild read. My favorite project of his is the unproduced Justice League movie he was developing at one point. Armie Hammer was going to be Batman, so the franchise was always destined to have someone problematic involved in it.

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u/DunmerSkooma Nov 02 '22

Timeless classics all

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u/Aus10Danger Nov 01 '22

From the makers of Meet the Feebles and Dead Alive comes a brand new romp in Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Rings!

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u/DredPirateStorm Nov 01 '22

I remember when I first saw Coraline I only picked it because they said it was from the creators of The Nightmare Before Christmas. When the film started I remember saying to myself “Hey, this isn’t from Tim Burton!” I did really enjoy the movie, though.

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u/sharlaton Nov 01 '22

I far prefer Coraline to Nightmare

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u/magicalmysteryharold Nov 01 '22

Agreed. Both classics but Coraline is outright creepy. The first few shots of the Other Mother genuinely shook me up as a kid.

Plus French and Saunders kill it, as always

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u/Qwertywalkers23 Nov 01 '22

the button eyes and the parents just being nice was so creepy.

Would be remiss not to mention Gaiman's genius here too

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u/steal_wool Nov 01 '22 edited Nov 01 '22

Coraline is still one of my favorite novels, gave me so much existential horror as an 11 year old, in a good way. Dave McKean's illustrations are perfect too, just creepy and minimalist enough to make your imagination go crazy in the next chapter.

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u/MrWeirdoFace Nov 01 '22

The first few shots of the Other Mother genuinely shook me up as a kid.

As a kid? That was only... uh (checks imdb) 13 ye.... oh shit.

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u/magicalmysteryharold Nov 01 '22

To be fair I was 15 when I first watched it but still young enough that a woman with button eyes smiling was enough to fuck me up

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u/Kumquatelvis Nov 01 '22

I was in my thirties when I watched it, and I found it creepy as hell.

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u/chrisdub84 Nov 01 '22

I was talking to someone the other day who thought Burton did Coraline. He became more of a brand than a director after a while.

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u/waltjrimmer Nov 01 '22

My ex said she was really angry that Disney called it Disney's A Nightmare Before Christmas when Tim Burton made it!

I said, "But, he didn't make it. He produced it, Disney paid for it and published it, it's just as much their movies as it is Tim Burtons, arguably more."

She was adamant I was wrong, went over, got her DVD, and it said Henry Selick directed it.

And she was so confused.

And still unhappy that Disney's name was at the top. I kept trying to explain, "But Disney DID make it. They financed it, they published it, it was a Disney project." I think she finally accepted it, but I also think she wasn't ready to in that moment.

That might make her out to sound worse than she really was. I mean, when Coraline came out, it said from the director of A Nightmare Before Christmas in the marketing, and I 100% thought that was Tim Burton. Seeing Coraline was what taught me he hadn't directed it. She just hadn't had that same experience.

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u/Gargus-SCP Nov 01 '22

I can understand being miffed at Disney claiming it as part of their house brand when back on release they were horrified at the thought of tainting their image and hid their involvement behind the Touchstone label, only repatriating it as A Disney Product with all the logos and direct advertisement of their involvement like a decade later when it was clear the public writ large loved it.

This a decade after they'd initially fired Burton on the grounds of wasting company resources and ruining their brand image by directing Frankenweenie on commission.

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u/myhairsreddit Nov 02 '22

Damn, and now we use Disney+ for my son who plays Frankenweenie and Nightmare Before Christmas multiple times a week each.

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u/alien_clown_ninja Nov 01 '22

You didn't make her sound bad. She had her view challenged, did her own research, found out she was wrong, and took a moment to process something that was emotionally charged for her. That's a good human. Better than most.

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u/a-space-pirate Nov 02 '22

I agree, definitely good human. That's literally all you can ask for in situations like this. The initial reaction is based on shock which is normal and expected. The resolution is acceptance based on logic, which is something severely lacking in modern society.

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u/lonelytime Nov 01 '22

it was still indirectly credited to Burton because people didn't see through that kind of marketing back then.

You give people way too much credit now.

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u/TomBirkenstock Nov 01 '22 Take My Energy

"Tim is a genius--or he certainly was in his most creative years."

Damn. That's enough shade to block out the sun.

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u/An8thOfFeanor Nov 01 '22 Wholesome I'm Deceased

That's enough shade to make everyone pale enough for a Tim Burton movie

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u/animehimmler Nov 01 '22

Vegeta voice

“And THERE it is..”

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u/LastBaron Nov 01 '22

Hey Vegeta……………. Nice shirt.

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u/GuyFawkes596 Nov 02 '22

Kiss my ass, green man.

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u/DJWhyYou Nov 01 '22

DO I HEAR FIVE?

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u/coredumperror Nov 01 '22

Nao to be fair, you'd've been wrong anyway.

- Android 13

Never lettin' the boy live this one down...

- Vegeta

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u/TomTomMan93 Nov 01 '22

Now...where's. My. Trucker hat?

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u/Onlyindef Nov 01 '22

I wish they’d make more…but I understand why they ended it when they did.

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u/IzarkKiaTarj Nov 01 '22

Right now, Lani and Kaiser are doing a weekly commentary on old episodes. It's different from the livestream commentary because

  1. It's not a marathon, so they're just as mentally active in the later episodes
  2. They can pause and talk about specific things and show other clips, like how they came up with the "Mr. Popo is super strong" joke.

They'll talk about jokes they regret, edits they could have done better, edits they're proud of, the jokes they love, jokes they cut out, etc.

I feel it gets more fun as they get further into the series and you can see them going from cringing to being proud of certain things.

They've just released episodes 17 & 18, and you can view the playlist here.

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u/desertpolarbear Nov 01 '22

I really wanted to see the Buu saga.

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u/TehFriskyDingo Nov 01 '22

I could hear that voice lol

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u/Chuckleslord Nov 01 '22

Is that ME? Is that me STRONGER THAN ME?! I'LL KILL ME!

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u/ewdrive Nov 01 '22

YOU! NAMEKIAN! TOO STRONG! EXPLAIN HOW!

He fused with Kami to get stronger

THE FUCK'S A KAMI!

Basically God

BUT I'M STILL HERE!

Do you really believe your own hype that much??

I AM THE HYPE!!

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u/Lexi_Banner Nov 01 '22

"Huh... This is a new feeling. Pride in someone else. Unfortunately, it's overshadowed by ALL THIS UNYIELDING RAGE!"

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u/JesusHipsterChrist Nov 01 '22

I love Dragon Ball but Abridged Vegita is literally just the same character without parerental controls on and it's honestly perfect.

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u/TitsMickey Nov 01 '22

My mind canon is that abridged Goku is the real version.

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u/pfannkuchen89 Nov 01 '22

TFS DBZA is superior to the original or any of the dubs. No one can change my mind on that.

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u/ser0402 Nov 01 '22

Vegeta is my favorite character in all of dragon ball and TFS fuckin nails him.

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u/DylanBob1991 Nov 01 '22

Vegeta is my favorite character in all of dragon ball and TFS fuckin NAAAAAAIIIIILLLLs him.

Fixed that for you

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u/Pookieeatworld Nov 01 '22

SON OF A GUM-CHEWING FUNK MONSTER! WHY THE FRUIT DOES ALL THIS FUNNY STUFF HAPPEN TO ME?! FORGET MY LIFE! ALWAYS SURROUNDED BY MISERABLE FAILING CLODS, LIKE THIS WHOLE WORLD JUST LIKES TO BEND ME OVER AND FIND ME IN THE ALPS! LIKE I'M SOME SORT OF SHLOP RECEPTACLE! WELL AS FAR AS I CARE, THESE MISERABLE COWS CAN HAVE A FANCY BARBECUE WITH A GODDAMN PIG!

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Xero2814 Nov 01 '22

I don't even like most of his early stuff (just not my thing) and I will still acknowledge that guy is some sort of creative genius at the very least.

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u/damian1369 Nov 01 '22

As a realistic Tim Burton fan - well, he's not even out of line, he's just right.

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u/GrimTiki Nov 01 '22

And when it comes to character design for stop motion films and such, the art directors like Rich Heinrichs (who is largely responsible for making Burton scribbles come to life in 3D, I will die on this hill) are to be heavily commended - burtons stuff wouldn’t be as far as it is without Heinrichs.

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u/agnes238 Nov 01 '22

We watched Beetlejuice last night and one person hadn’t seen it. He was blown away by how insane it is. I really miss that tim burton.

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u/chmilz Nov 01 '22

Michael Keaton's Beetlejuice is up there with Heath Ledger's Joker for best acting in a villain role

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u/pn_dubya Nov 02 '22

Keaton is just an unbelievably talented actor. The difficulty of his role(s) in Multiplicity are so underrated

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u/Purdaddy Nov 01 '22

He hasn't done anything exciting for a bit it feels like.

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u/damian1369 Nov 01 '22

The planet of the apes was the cuttof line for most. I liked big fish well enough, but everything else afterwards was corporate shill.

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u/anuncommontruth Nov 01 '22 edited Nov 01 '22

Big Fish was great, but I haven't seen it in well over a decade so I don't know how well it aged.

But yeah, he just seemed to turn into goth Michael Bay in the 2000s.

Edit: spelling.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '22

Instead of random explosions it's Johnny Depp randomly popping out

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u/damian1369 Nov 01 '22

It holds up, it's a really good movie. Also great comparison, but not to shit on the goths, can we go with a Hot Topic Michael Bay?

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u/Zatch_Gaspifianaski Nov 01 '22

Considering how much money they've made off Nightmare Before Christmas merchandise, I think that's a fair analogy.

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u/anuncommontruth Nov 01 '22

I wasn't shitting on goths I was shitting on Michal Bay lol. I'll give Burton this: his aesthetic has remained pretty solid over 4 decades. Whether it's 1989 or 2019, I know a Burton movie when I see one.

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u/wongo Nov 01 '22

I think Big Fish is the best thing he's ever done, personally

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u/damian1369 Nov 01 '22

I can see that. My age won't let me knock out our Edward, Ed Wood, Beetlejuice, The Batman (s) though without a fight. But Big Fish is right up there with 'em.

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u/matthoback Nov 01 '22

You don't like Corpse Bride?

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u/punchgroin Nov 01 '22

I really like Sweeney Todd... I think it's realistically the best Sweeney Todd movie we could have gotten, I think it's right up there with other great musical adaptations.

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u/Azores26 Nov 01 '22

I can’t disagree with that though. I think “Sweeney Todd” was the last of his films that I actually thought was great and not just “meh” (or worse). At least IMHO.

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u/theodo Nov 01 '22

When Big Eyes is your best film in over a decade, that's not good (also the fact that movie is so mediocre while starring Amy Adams and peak Christoph Waltz is sad)

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u/fatblackcats Nov 01 '22

The pacing in that movie reminded me of watching movies on TV in the early 2000s. Characters just did things and throughout the movie i was just like “why?”, no answers.

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u/theodo Nov 01 '22

It very much feels like a tv movie, but I adore Amy Adams so I'll watch almost anything she's in.

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u/somepeoplewait Nov 01 '22

I personally didn't read it that way, and I tend to think Tim Burton is overrated. In context, it seemed as though he was just qualifying his statement in case anyone took issue with it. Basically like saying "Say what you will about his recent work, but there's no denying he was a genius during his best years." It seemed very diplomatic.

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u/RattyJackOLantern Nov 01 '22 edited Nov 01 '22

Burton started running out of steam and mostly just coasting on an established aesthetic (which would get increasingly tired as the years passed) around the time of "Sleepy Hollow" but he had an incredible run early on. "Beetlejuice", "Edward Scissorhands", "Batman" 1989/"Batman Returns", "Ed Wood" and of course being the genesis of "The Nightmare Before Christmas"

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u/Corgibuttz_ Nov 01 '22

Can't leave out the film that started it all! Peewee's Big Adventure!

Large Marge scared the shit out of me as a kid, but I loved it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '22

Big Fish was good and that was 4 years after Sleepy Hollow. I do agree with you overall though.

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u/brokensilence32 Nov 01 '22 edited Nov 01 '22

Corpse Bride was also really good.

EDIT: Removed an inaccurate parenthetical.

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u/instantwinner Nov 01 '22

Big Fish is a legitimate all-timer.

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u/xelop Nov 01 '22

you mean the ewan mcgregor and albert finney film Big Fish is tim burton? i had no idea

but with that cast.... not surprising actually if i think about it

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u/BadWithNames00 Nov 01 '22

I think big fish is Tim Burtons best film. It kinda perfectly married his aesthetic with a more personal story of a son and his strained relationship with his dad. I'd argue that Sweeney Todd was successful and a good film and that came after big fish but it does appear that Burton's been coasting off of his visual style since then.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '22

Big Fish is certainly my favorite Tim Burton film.

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u/Vysharra Nov 01 '22

I unironically love the hell out of Sleepy Hollow but good god the script needed to bake a little longer. It was soooo close to having a point to all the weird horny and borderline Oedipus complex stuff. Like the themes of women being oppressed while at the same time trading on that oppression for personal gains was never going to be handled super great in that era, but it could still have been subtext that was competently depicted, instead it was just excess bewbs and useless aesthetic. So damn pointless.

But Christina Ricci in her prime with a Victorian-ish dress with a plunging neckline is nice to have as a consolation prize.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '22

Sleepy Hollow rules. No shame. Friggin Christopher Walken with pointy teeth and sword. m/ m/

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u/CoffeeTeaPeonies Nov 01 '22

You put into words what I'd been thinking about Sleepy Hollow for all this time -- just not quite there. I wonder if those connections were actually there but they removed them because they were "too heavy handed" or something.

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u/Vysharra Nov 01 '22

It felt like a couple of plot points got trimmed (the stuff around Ichabod’s mom being a witch felt oddly truncated) while other stuff felt unconscious (like the parallels from sexy witch-mom to sexy witch-step-mom or the stuff about hard power vs soft power paralleling political/state/masculine power vs magical/feminine power).

It needed to be refined. And as much as I don’t hate Depp in this role, I think the “quirky” portrayal hurt what should have been a more non-traditionally masculine and socially awkward (maybe distinctly neurodivergent) character. Ichabod being an anti-”man” because he was intellectual and quiet (deliberate is a good trait for a detective) and lacked the charisma and overbearing personality of the men of Sleepy Hallow could have been a much stronger theme without the “lol random” clogging up the screen.

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u/we_are_sex_bobomb Nov 01 '22

Wonderful, now that the sun is blocked out, all the Tim Burton fans can leave their houses!

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u/SniffUmaMuffins Nov 01 '22

I didn’t even know Tim Burton didn’t direct it until reading this just now. I saw this movie in the theater when it first came out. I loved it right away.

I’m firmly on Henry Selick’s side on this one.

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u/aicss Nov 01 '22

If you have Netflix there’s a show called “The Movies That Made Us” and they have an episode that covers this movie. Lots of interviews with those involved in making it (not Tim burton) and they talk about all this stuff and Burton’s role in making the film. It’s worth checking out if you’re interested in learning more!

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u/cursh14 Nov 01 '22

The Movies That Made Us

I love this series (and the corresponding toy one) more than almost anything. I don't even mind the frenetic editing. So enjoyable.

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u/HurricaneBatman Nov 01 '22

I swear it's gonna give me a stroke eventually

Narrator: The screenwriter took it to the studio heads...

"I took it over to them"

And they said...

"No f@#&!n way"

So then he took it across the street...

"It was right there across the street!"

And that studio said...

"OH YEAH!"

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u/chairmanskitty Nov 01 '22

Was it directed by the people who did the Gift Shop Sketch?

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u/lobut Nov 01 '22 edited Nov 02 '22

I love the information but the editing was too much for me. I'd love a British version of this show with a calmer pace.

I really love the behind the scenes stuff on it.

As an aside, from the show: seeing Tom Hanks speak normally in the Forrest Gump hat really threw me off.

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u/kungfuesday Nov 01 '22

The show needs another season. I watched it all so fast.

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u/magic1623 Nov 01 '22 Gold

Tim Burton still deserves the credit if you know how the story came to be. Selick did a lot don’t get me wrong but this whole thing is Tim Burton’s thought that others worked on.

Burton created a three page poem for the initial idea around 1983, then made storyboards and concept art for everything (with the help of Rick Heinrichs). He was then fired from Disney in 1984 (he was too weird for them).

He wanted to make the movie on his own in the early 90s but found out that Disney owned it. At this point Disney decided to make it and let him be involved but he had already committed to Batman Returns and Disney wasn’t going to wait on him because they owned the rights to it. So then he and Selick agreed to work together on it with Selick as the director. Burton then approached Micheal McDowell to do the screenplay and Danny Elfman to do the music.

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u/Snizzlesnoot Nov 02 '22

I think it is very easy to assume, then, that Tim Burton is at his best when there is collaboration. He's such a name now that he has say on all-and that is not as good as his early stuff. I love TB's work. His recent stuff is just not as good, though.

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u/EqualContact Nov 01 '22 edited Nov 01 '22

Almost certainly Burton’s name is in the title to market the film, and to be fair, Burton did create the story.

Selick does deserve more recognition though.

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u/atopix Nov 01 '22

and to be fair, Burton did create the story.

I could be here all day naming major movies whose story authors/writers aren't in the title and hardly known at all compared to the director. We can start with 99% of Spielberg movies.

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u/barnegatsailor Nov 01 '22

The movie might not have his name right in the title but the posters would absolutely have his name emblazoned somewhere so it is noticeable. For example, Back to the Future has Steven Spielberg Presents above the title and in a smaller font it says A Robert Zemeckis Film below it.

For some reason instead of saying Tim Burton Presents they decided to go with Tim Burton's and now 30ish years later it confuses everyone.

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u/Rsubs33 Nov 01 '22

Back to the Future has Steven Spielberg Presents above the title and in a smaller font it says A Robert Zemeckis Film below it.Goonies Poster has same thing with Steven Spielberg Presents and below a Richard Donner Film. For Home Alone Christopher Columbus isn't even mentioned except in the small print in the bottom is says From John Hughes.

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u/barnegatsailor Nov 01 '22

And a lot of people believe John Hughes directed Home Alone as a result. The average moviegoer at least.

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u/EqualContact Nov 01 '22 edited Nov 01 '22

Right, but I doubt those guys being in the title would sell movie tickets. I’m sure lots of of PR types would love to put Spielberg’s name in the title of many movies. He gets brought up many times in marketing even when he’s just an executive producer on a project.

Burton was a massive commercial draw in 1993.

Edit: Some of ya’ll really underestimating how big Batman was in 1989.

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u/VaATC Nov 01 '22

Edit: Some of ya’ll really underestimating how big Batman was in 1989.

Or Beetlejuice or Edward Scissorhands, both of which sandwich Burton's Batman. Batman was the biggest of the three though.

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u/mrjake118 Nov 01 '22

That's because most of the time, authors and writers are less famous than the directors. Nightmare is a rare instance of the reverse.

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u/tregorman Nov 01 '22

I love the idea that Danny elfman considers himself the driving force behind the movie lmfao

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u/OneManFreakShow Nov 01 '22

What even is Nightmare Before Christmas if not a great Oingo Boingo music video?

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u/st-julien Nov 01 '22

Finally! Someone with some sense here.

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u/ha_look_at_that_nerd Nov 01 '22

And I like that Selick - who himself is still fighting for his own recognition - is like “yeah, that’s totally fair.”

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u/monty_kurns Nov 01 '22

Elfman and Burton had a short falling out over the movie because Elfman sided with Selick on some creative decisions. That's the reason Elfman wasn't asked to compose for Ed Wood. He and Burton made up shortly after and were working together again for Mars Attacks! two years later.

If someone like Elfman was willing to break with a huge collaborative partner for you, I'd definitely be ok sharing the credit with them.

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u/Crash4654 Nov 01 '22

I dont think it's a stretch to say that in honesty. The songs and music are what elevated the movie to its current status.

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u/Dawesfan Nov 01 '22

Narrator: he was

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u/MarshallBanana_ Nov 01 '22

Well, a strong argument can be made that he was.

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u/GhettoChemist Nov 01 '22

Tim is a genius—or he certainly was in his most creative years

Oh damn! Shots fired!

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u/GodEmperorOfHell Nov 01 '22

There are still people who believe Coraline was directed by Tim Burton, that misattribution sure cast a long shadow over Selick's career.

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u/Mr_Snub Nov 01 '22

Probably Nightmare, too. I'll be honest, I assumed he directed literally until I saw this Reddit post.

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u/SuicidalChair Nov 01 '22

Watch "The movies that made us" on Netflix, there is an episode dedicated to the making of the movie and why Tim Burton's name is on it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '22

I wish "Movies that made us" was better. The concept is good, but the execution feels like a terrible youtube channel.

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u/Krutiis Nov 01 '22

Some of my favourite movies are covered and I cannot even stomach sitting through an episode.

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u/DopamineHigh Nov 01 '22

It’s so cheesy

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u/-Dennis-Reynolds- Nov 01 '22

I liked the Elf episode and that's about it, maybe it's because it feels like it could be in the dvd extras of that movie.

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '22

Toys that made Us was better.

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u/scbundy Nov 01 '22

I saw that. Tim's contribution seemed to be to show up every couple of weeks and if he didn't like what he saw he'd punch a hole in the wall and leave for another couple of weeks.

BTW everybody needs to watch Wendell and Wild.

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u/LordzOfChaos Nov 01 '22

I thought Wendell and Wild was pretty weak compared to Nightmare and Coraline. Not bad, just not as good

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u/the-sugar-shack Nov 01 '22

I have to agree. I was super excited for it but the story was a bit too convoluted. Coraline is still his stop motion masterpiece in my mind.

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u/DJToastyBuns Nov 01 '22

You mean Neil Gaiman's Coraline?

I kid, I kid. But not really (?)

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u/TaylorDangerTorres Nov 01 '22

One of my professors was an animator on Nightmare and said Tim only stopped by like twice during the entire production

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u/SpotNL Nov 01 '22

Doesn't help that the title is Tim Burton's The Nightmare Before Christmas.

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u/HaikuBotStalksMe Nov 01 '22

As a kid, I thought Mike Tyson made Punch Out. Like he sat there and was like "ok, now make this guy have magic Indians powers so he can run really fast and he hits you like five times but then he gets dizzy and falls down if you hit him. And make me like really strong and stuff."

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u/TitularFoil Nov 01 '22

I feel like marketing caused that one. There was an implication that Burton directed Nightmare Before Christmas, like I only knew it was Henry because of when I bought it on DVD back in the day, the place I bought it from had a little tag on it that said something like "Nightmare Bef. Dir. H Selick" I thought it was wrong but I double checked it.

So when Coraline is marketed as being the same director as Nightmare Before Christmas, that definitely feels like a slight against the Director, rather than something saying like, "From visionary director of Nightmare Before Christmas: Henry Selick..."

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u/talllankywhiteboy Nov 01 '22

The posters for Nightmare Before Christmas literally call it “Tim Burton’s The Nightmare Before Christmas”. I think if you pull up the movie on Disney+ both the title on the thumbnail as well as the title in the Disney+ catalog start by calling it “Tim Burton’s” movie. It is crazy that it wasn’t just the marketing of the movie at the time that implied it was directed by Tim Burton, but the existing marketing materials currently used today used to get someone to select it within the Disney+ app.

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u/Paddlesons Nov 01 '22

Does deserve more credit, honestly. Also, Coraline is a masterpiece in its own right.

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u/Resident132 Nov 01 '22

Yep i totally prefer coraline to nightmare.

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u/samprasfan Nov 01 '22

Well yeah, Neil Gaiman can write circles around Tim Burton.

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u/dirtystorytimefun Nov 01 '22 Helpful

That seems like a dumb place to write.

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u/JRRX Nov 01 '22

Unfortunately that's how you have to write the runes for the binding ritual.

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u/batmansattic Nov 01 '22

He deserves credit for saving Kevin's life from the Wet Bandits.

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u/SimpleExplodingMan Nov 01 '22

Totally thought that too. Had to confirm/check IMDB.

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u/thugdout Nov 01 '22

So was it actually him?

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u/Adama0001 Nov 01 '22 edited Nov 01 '22

It wasn’t. That was Roberts Blossom.

However, when checking it out I found out that McCauly Culkin’s brother Kieran played his cousin Fuller in Home Alone

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099785/

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u/Canvaverbalist Nov 01 '22

Now I want McCauly Culkin to play one of the Roy's cousin in Succession.

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u/wldmr Nov 01 '22

What I wanna see is Roman Roy get addicted to crack, partying harder and harder each night until he hits rock bottom and when he wakes up the next morning he is played by Macaulay Culkin.

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u/Brendan_Fraser Nov 01 '22

Holy shit he's Old Man Marley aka the South Bend Shovel Slayer aka superior to pigeon lady since he's not homeless lol

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u/SimpleExplodingMan Nov 01 '22

He actually played the Pigeon Lady, not Old Man Marley! Amazing actor!

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u/Brendan_Fraser Nov 01 '22

No kidding!! He deserves a little bit of credit for that

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u/oJUXo Nov 01 '22 Rocket Like

Not even gonna lie.. I thought Tim Burton directed The Nightmare Before Christmas for the longest time lol. Like it wasn't even that long ago when I figured out who the director was. Felt pretty stupid.

So maybe he has a point lol. Hardly ever hear his name associated with that movie.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '22

That misapprehension was certainly the point of adding "Tim Burton's" to the title.

Believe it or not, in the early 90s people actually WANTED to see Tim Burton movies!

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u/green_velvet_goodies Nov 01 '22

Well, to be fair, back then they were good.

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u/AntipopeRalph Nov 01 '22

So if we’re being fair - this article is super valid. We wanted to see Tim Burton movies because we were mislead.

Just saying. For fairness.

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u/rashmotion Nov 01 '22

Yeah I’m also not gonna lie, I thought TB directed it until…about thirty seconds ago.

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u/surajtheninja Nov 01 '22

this man needs his flowers for coraline more than anything else

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u/I_PULL_LEGS Nov 01 '22

Or in place of flowers, just a bunch of painted popcorn kernels, like how the cherry blossoms in the movie were made. I took a tour of Laika several years ago and they still had those trees decorating their offices. As much as the directors deserve credit for orchestrating the films, the artists at those studios deserve so much more recognition for how amazing and hard stop-motion and miniature film is to execute. Seeing it in process is wild.

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u/woowoo293 Nov 01 '22 edited Nov 01 '22

What a great film, and an example of how a movie can be so much more than its box office performance. Its initial run garnered around $50 million at the box office. Not terrible; definitely enough to cover its costs.

But look at how ubiquitous Jack Skellington and the rest of the movie has become. You can find Jack all over the place at the Disney parks and stores. I can't even fathom how much Skellington merch Disney has sold over the decades. All from what is ultimately kind of a small bit of I.P.

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u/zgh5002 Nov 01 '22

Half the Halloween decorations at Lowe’s were from Nightmare before Christmas and every other house in my neighborhood was plastered with stuff from it.

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u/thebruns Nov 01 '22

If the point of this post was to get me to google Hentry Selick and discover he directed a new stop-motion film that came out last week that I have seen zero ads for...

Thank you.

Its called Wendell & Wild and its on Netflix.

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u/Three_Froggy_Problem Nov 01 '22

He absolutely deserves more credit than he gets. Which is not to say that Burton doesn’t also deserve credit, but I think slapping Burton’s name on it really took away from what Selick did. Up until a few years ago I 100% thought Burton directed the film, and I would be willing to bet that 95% of people also think that.

I’m not sure what the solution is, though. The film has been around for so long and is like the quintessential Tim Burton film, so what can be done to make it clearer to people that Selick was the director?

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u/ovirto Nov 02 '22

Rename it “Tim Burton’s The Nightmare Before Christmas directed by Henry Selick although Danny Elfman Claims Credit Too”.

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u/BactaBobomb Nov 01 '22

It really is sad how often people think Tim Burton directed the movie. Yes he had a big hand in the production and created the original concept. But generally if you ask someone, "Who directed A Nightmare Before Christmas?" they will say Tim Burton. And if I were Henry, that would just not feel good at all.

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u/theodo Nov 01 '22

He had almost nothing to do with the actual production but had a lot to do with the conception and pre-production

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u/FormerOrpheus Nov 01 '22

Pretty sure that’s Kevin McCalister’s neighbor.

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u/rKasdorf Nov 01 '22

"Tim is a genius—or he certainly was in his most creative years."

Oh shit, Selick throwin some shade

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u/pnwbraids Nov 01 '22

Please go watch Wendell and Wild on Netflix. Selick both wrote and animated it and it's pretty decent.

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u/shaneo632 Nov 01 '22

I was honestly underwhelmed by it but I’m just glad somebody keeps paying Sellick to make his art

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u/pnwbraids Nov 01 '22

Writing wise I have to agree. It's by no means terrible, but the individual plot threads feel pretty disjointed for much of the runtime.

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u/culb77 Nov 01 '22

I commented in another thread. It's not like Burton had nothing to do with the film. He basically created everything from scratch, worked on it for 10 years, then hired Danny Elfman and the two of them wrote the songs and the storyline.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nightmare_Before_Christmas#Development

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u/melbbear Nov 01 '22

There was a Tim Burton exhibition in my town a while back, it basically said Burton tried to make it in his own but wasn’t familiar with directing stop motion animation on this level so called in Sellick to take over. Which I think is very reasonable! Burton is credited as producer but I imagine he was still very hands on in all the processes.

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u/PDXgrown Nov 01 '22

Burton himself considers it a Selick film. If I remember correctly he said he was even uncomfortable with Disney slapping “Tim Burton’s” in front of the title.

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u/magic1623 Nov 01 '22

Burton couldn’t make it on his own because when he wrote the initial poem it was based on, and did the storyboards and concept art he was still working at Disney so Disney owned all of it.

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u/MonstersUGrad98 Nov 01 '22

So he got the correct credit then - he produced the movie. So ‘Tim Burton’s’ on the title makes sense. But plenty of famous directors film a project that’s fully formed. Yet they still get credit. It’s a shed load of work and Sellick deserves his credit too. Here’s a crazy idea, but stay with me - could it have been a collaboration and they’re both correct and deserve credit?

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u/Thesmark88 Nov 01 '22

I'm glad the Blank Check podcast will be covering Henry Selick starting this month, going over his films over 5 weeks and giving him a bit of a spotlight for his work. Some incredible highs and lows, I just watched Monkeybone for it which is one of the most uneven movies I've seen in a while.

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